* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [CALL TO ORDER] [00:00:04] GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO THE CITY OF DUBLIN ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW BOARD MEETING. UH, THIS MEETING'S BEING HELD AT 5 5 5 PERIMETER DRIVE. THE MEETING CAN BE ACCESSED VIA THE LIVESTREAM VIDEO RECORDED AT CITY'S WEB WEBSITE. WE WELCOME PUBLIC PARTICIPATION, INCLUDING PUBLIC COMMENTS ON CASES. UH, THE MEETING PROCEDURE FOR THIS EVENING WILL BEGIN WITH THE STAFF MAKING A PRESENTATION FOR EACH CASE FOLLOWED BY AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE APPLICANT TO MAKE A PRESENTATION. THE BOARD WILL THEN ASK CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, FIRST OF THE STAFF AND THEN THE APPLICANT. WE WILL THEN OPEN THE FLOOR TO ANY PUBLIC COMMENT THAT MIGHT BE HERE. UM, IF YOU DO COME UP TO THE MICROPHONE, UH, TO PROVIDE SOME PUBLIC COMMENT, YOU NEED TO INTRODUCE YOURSELVES NAME AND ADDRESS. UM, THEN WE'LL SEE IF THERE ARE ANY PUBLIC COMMENT THAT ARE WE, ARE WE STILL ON? OKAY. 'CAUSE THE COMPUTER'S GONE DOWN. OKAY. THE SCREENS ARE GONE DOWN. OKAY. YEAH, I EXPECT WE ARE. OKAY. ALRIGHT, WE'LL KEEP GOING THEN. UM, FOLLOWING THE PUBLIC COMMENT HERE, IF THERE IS ANYBODY, ANY, WE'LL OPEN IT UP TO SEE IF WE HAVE ANY, UM, PUBLIC COMMENT THAT'S BEEN SENT ELECTRONICALLY, AF AFTER ALL THAT, THEN WE'LL DELIBERATE AND IF APPROPRIATE, WE WILL THEN RENDER A DECISION. WE START ALL OF OUR MEETINGS WITH THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. SO IF EVERYONE WOULD RISE AND FACE THE FLAG AND REPEAT, JUDY, WE CALL THE ROLL PLEASE. YES, MS. COOPER? YES. MR. COTTER? HERE. MR. ALEXANDER? HERE. MR. JEWEL? HERE. MS. DAMER HERE. OKAY. [ACCEPTANCE OF DOCUMENTS and APPROVAL OF MINUTES] ALRIGHT. IS THERE A MOTION TO ACCEPT THE DOCUMENTS IN THE RECORD AND APPROVE THE MINUTES FROM OUR MARCH 27TH MEETING? I'LL MAKE THAT MOTION TO GO AHEAD. SECOND MARK. OH, DID YOU GET, DID YOU GET TO SEAN SECOND? IT. OKAY. OKAY. UM, MR. JEWEL? YES. MS. DAMER? YES. MR. COTTER? YES. YES. MR. ALEXANDER? YES. MS. COOPER? YES. ALRIGHT, THANK YOU. SORRY, I THOUGHT YOU SAID I LIKE YOU SAID MORE. OKAY. ALRIGHT. UM, OUR BOARD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR REVIEW OF CONSTRUCTION AND MODIFICATIONS OR ALTERATIONS TO ANY SITE IN THE AREA SUBJECT TO ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW UNDER THE ZONING CODE SECTION 1 5 3 0.170. UH, THIS BOARD HAS A DECISION MAKING RESPONSIBILITY ON THESE CASES. ANYONE WHO INTENDS TO ADDRESS US, UH, THIS EVENING MUST BE SWORN IN. SO I'M GONNA DO THAT RIGHT NOW. SO IF YOU INTEND TO ADDRESS THE BOARD ON ANY CASE THIS EVENING, PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND AND ANSWER IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. DO YOU SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL TRUTH THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN YOUR TESTIMONY TO THIS BOARD? OKAY. ALRIGHT. THANK YOU ALL. OKAY. UM, ONE, IF ONE, I WANNA SEE IF THERE'S A, A MOTION TO SUPPORT THIS HERE ON THE BOARD. UM, IN ORDER FOR OUR AGENDA, PERHAPS TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE EFFICIENT TONIGHT, WE THOUGHT, THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE MOST APPROPRIATE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN GIVE THE, UH, 40 EAST BRIDGE STREET, UH, PROPOSAL THE TIME IT REALLY DESERVES, UH, TO MAYBE MOVE THAT TO THE END SINCE THE OTHER ITEMS MAY NOT HAVE AS MUCH CONVERSATION. IS, IS THERE BOARD MEMBERS YOU OKAY WITH THAT? I'LL MOVE THAT WE ADJUST THE, UH, SCHEDULE IN ORDER TO ADDRESS THE SHORTER CASES FIRST. OKAY. I'LL SECOND. MS. MS. DAMER? YES. MR. JEWEL? YES. MR. ALEXANDER? YES. MR. COTTER? YES. MS. COOPER? YES. OKAY, THANK YOU. OKAY. UM, SO WE'LL [ Case #23-096ARB-MSP] START WITH CASE, UM, NUMBER 23 DASH 0 9 6 A RB UM, MSP TUCCI SIGN AT 35 NORTH HIGH STREET. THIS IS A MASTER SIGN PLAN, THE PROPOSED PROPOSAL FOR WALL SIGNS AND A PROJECTING SIGN AT AN EXISTING RESTAURANT IN HISTORIC DUBLIN. THE 0.23 ACRE SITE IS ZONED HD HC HISTORIC DISTRICT CORE AND IS LOCATED NORTHWEST TO THE INTERSECTION OF NORTH HIGH STREET AND WING HILL LANG. SO TAYLOR, WHENEVER YOU'RE READY. THANK YOU AND GOOD EVENING. THIS IS A REQUEST FOR REVIEW AND APPROVAL OF A MASTER SIGN PLAN [00:05:01] FOR TCIS RESTAURANT. THE 0.023 ACRE SITE IS LOCATED NORTHWEST OF THE INTERSECTION OF NORTH HIGH STREET AND WING HILL L THE PROPERTY IS ZONE HISTORIC DISTRICT HISTORIC COURT AND CONTAINS FRONTAGE ON THREE STREETS, INCLUDING HIGH STREET, WING, HILL LANG, AND DARBY STREET. VARIOUS SIGN APPLICATIONS HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE A RB IN THE PAST. THE SIGN TYPES AND THEIR LOCATIONS HAVE GENERALLY STAYED THE SAME UNTIL NOW. IN 2022, THE A RB APPROVED THE CONSTRUCTION OF THREE BUILDING ADDITIONS WHERE A FUTURE MASTER SIGN PLAN APPLICATION WAS ANTICIPATED. SO THE EXISTING CONDITIONS HERE SHOW WHERE THE TWO CURRENT WALL SIGNS ARE LOCATED. NOTE THAT THE PREVIOUSLY EXISTING GROUND SIGN, UH, ON NORTH HIGH STREET WAS UM, RECENTLY REMOVED. SO THE CODE PERMITS A COMBINATION OF TWO DIFFERENT SIGN TYPES FOR THIS BUILDING. THAT INCLUDES GROUND AND BUILDING MOUNTED SIGNS LOTS WITH MORE THAN ONE STREET FRONTAGE ARE PERMITTED. ONE ADDITIONAL GROUND OR BUILDING MOUNTED SIGN, BUT NOT TO EXCEED THREE SIGNS. THREE BUILDING MOUNTED SIGNS ARE PROPOSED AND INCLUDE TWO WALL SIGNS, ONE FACING DERBY STREET AND THE OTHER ABOVE THE MAIN ENTRANCE. AND THEN ONE PROJECTING SIGN FACING NORTH HIGH STREET. THE THREE REQUESTED BUILDING MOUNTAIN SIGNS TRIGGERS THE MASTER SIGN PLAN REQUEST. SO HERE WE HAVE THE PROPOSED WALL SIGNS AND PROJECTING SIGN, WHICH ARE CONSTRUCTED OF HDU PANELING IN THREE COLORS, BURGUNDY, GOLD AND WHITE. THE SIGNS BRANDING HAS BEEN UPDATED AND THE TEXT LOGO AND BORDER ARE DIMENSIONAL. ON A ASSESSED BACKGROUND WITH, UM, DIFFERENT FONT STYLES AND SIZING, THE GUIDELINES RECOMMEND ONE LETTER SIZE AND STYLE. HOWEVER, STAFF IS SUPPORTIVE OF THE PROPOSED SIGNS, UM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SIMPLE YET BALANCED. ALL CODE REQUIREMENTS ARE MET, SIGN LOCATIONS AND MOUNTING HEIGHTS ARE NOTED ON THE ELEVATIONS. ALL THREE SIGN HEIGHTS ARE MET. THE SIGNS ARE STRATEGICALLY PLACED TO DIRECT CUSTOMERS TO THE MAIN ENTRANCE. THE APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO REMOVE THE EXISTING, UM, LIGHTING ABOVE THE DARBY STREET SIGN. AND WHILE ILLUMINATION WAS ANTICIPATED AT THE FDP STAGE STAFF IS SUPPORTIVE OF ALL THREE SIGNS NOT BEING ILLUMINATED BECAUSE IT'S NOT A CODE REQUIREMENT. AND THEN THE UM, SIGNS ARE STILL VERY INTERACTIVE WITH THE STREETSCAPE. LASTLY, THE FDP SHOWED UM, SIX T MEDALLIONS THAT WERE TO BE ARCHITECTURALLY INTEGRATED INTO, UM, THE MASONRY COLUMNS ON THE BUILDING EDITION AND STAFF IS SUPPORTIVE OF THEIR REMOVAL DUE TO LACK OF ARCHITECTURAL INTEGRATION. SO THOSE HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE REQUEST AND WE CAN SEE THAT THOSE AREAS WHERE THAT WOULD'VE BEEN PLACED ON THE BUILDING, THEY'VE BEEN FILLED IN WITH BRICK ALL MASTER SIGN PI CRITERIA IS MET AND PLANNING RECOMMENDS APPROVAL OF THE MASTER SIGN PLAN WITH CONDITION THAT THE APPLICANT APPLY FOR AND OBTAIN PERMANENT SIGN PERMITS THROUGH BUILDING STANDARDS. WITH THAT, I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. THANK YOU. ANY INITIAL QUESTIONS? NO. OKAY. IS THE APPLICANT HERE? HI, COULD YOU INTRODUCE YOURSELF AND YOUR ADDRESS? GOT IT. UH, JARED NORTON MORRISON SIGN COMPANY. I AM THE APPLICANT. UH, 2 7 5 7 IOTA PARKWAY, COLUMBUS, OHIO. WERE WERE YOU HERE WHEN WE SWORE PEOPLE IN? YES. OKAY, SO YOU WERE SWORN IN. OKAY. DO, WOULD YOU LIKE TO ADD ANYTHING? UH, NO. UH, REALLY JUST HERE TO ANS OR ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. UH, APPRECIATE STAFF'S REVIEW. I KNOW WE WORKED FOR A FEW WEEKS ON THE DESIGN, SO, UH, HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS, ANY QUESTIONS FOR THE APPLICANT? OKAY. HAS THERE BEEN ANY PUBLIC COMMENT? THERE HAS NOT. OKAY. ALRIGHT. IS THERE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MASTER SIGN PLAN WITH ONE CONDITION? YEP. I MAKE THAT MOTION TO APPROVE THE MASTER SIGN WITH THAT ONE CONDITION. SECOND. MR. JEWEL? YES. YES. YES. MR. COTTER? YES. MR. ALEXANDER? YES. ALRIGHT. OUR SECOND CASE THIS [Case #24-028ARB-MPR] EVENING IS CASE NUMBER 24 DASH 0 2 8 ARB [00:10:01] NPR R UH, DUBLIN HISTORICAL SOCIETY AT 35 SOUTH HIGH STREET. THIS IS A MINOR PROJECT REVIEW. THIS IS A PROPOSAL FOR EXTERIOR MODIFICATIONS TO AN EXISTING BUILDING IN HISTORIC DUBLIN. UH, THE 0.03 ACRE SITE IS ZONED HD HC HISTORIC DISTRICT COURT AND IT'S LOCATED NORTHWEST OF THE INTERSECTION OF NORTH HIGH STREET AND SPRING HILL LANE. AND MR. CHAIRMAN, I'M GONNA HAVE TO RECUSE MYSELF FROM THIS CASE 'CAUSE I'M A MEMBER OF THE BOARD SO I WILL EXIT. THANKS FOR LETTING US KNOW. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, MR. HENDERSON. WHENEVER YOU'RE READY. GOOD EVENING. BOARD MEMBERS, THIS CASE IS FOR REVIEW AND APPROVAL OF ONE GROUND SIGN AND FIVE HAND RAILINGS TO BE CONSTRUCTED AT 35 SOUTH HIGH STREET. SO THE 0.03 ACRE SITE IS ZONE HISTORIC CORE AND IS HIGHLIGHTED HERE IN YELLOW. HERE'S THE PREVIOUS CASE HISTORY FOR THIS PROPERTY WITH THE MOST RECENT CASE BEING FROM AUGUST, 2016 FOR A MINOR PROJECT REVIEW TO PAINT THE EXTERIOR OF THE BUILDING. HERE ARE ELEVATIONS OF THE EXISTING CONDITIONS LOOKING EAST AND SOUTHEAST FROM HIGH STREET AND HERE ARE IMAGES OF THE GREEN SPACE AND PORCH ON SITE HIGHLIGHTING THE LOCATIONS OF THE STEPS. SO THE APPLICANT PROPOSES TO REQUEST THE INSTALLATION OF THE GROUND SIGN AT THE LOCATION OF THE BLUE DOT AND FIVE HANDRAILS AT VARIOUS LOCATIONS ON THE PROPERTY INDICATED BY THE GREEN DOTS. THE PROPOSED SIGN IS 6.90 SQUARE FEET, WHICH INCLUDES THE DUBLIN HISTORICAL SOCIETY LOGO AND AN ADDITIONAL HANGING SIGN THAT READS MUSEUM. THE RED LINE ALONG THE STONEWALL INDICATES THE RIGHT OF WAY. THE REQUIRED SETBACK IS EIGHT FEET FROM THIS LINE SHOWN. AND TO MEET THIS REQUIREMENT, THE SIGN WOULD INTRUDE INTO THE EXISTING STRUCTURE. THE APPLICANT ALSO PROPOSES TWO BEST PRO BPL 100 LIGHT FIXTURES COATED IN BLACK AT THE SIGN BASE AND FOUR BABY GYM BOX WOOD SHRUBS TO MEET THE LANDSCAPE REQUIREMENTS. BOTH PROPOSED SIGNS WILL HANG FROM CHAIN LINKS AS SHOWN IN YOUR MATERIALS PACKET. HERE'S THE PROPOSED STYLE OF THE HANDRAIL AT THE BOTTOM RIGHT. AS NOTED, THERE'S A TOTAL OF FIVE CONSISTING OF BLACK ALUMINUM MATERIAL. TWO LOCATED FOR FRONT ENTRY AND THREE LOCATED FOR SIDE ENTRY. THE GREEN DOTS INDICATE THE LOCATIONS OF THE HANDRAILS AND THE PROPOSED HANDRAILS ARE CONSISTENT WITH THOSE IN THE DISTRICT. SO ALL CONDITIONS OF THE MINOR PROJECT REVIEW ARE MET OR NOT APPLICABLE AND STAFF IS RECOMMENDING APPROVAL OF THE MINOR PROJECT WITH REVIEW WITH NO CONDITIONS. SO THANK YOU AND I'LL BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. ANY INITIAL QUESTIONS? OKAY. IS THERE A REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY HERE? YES. MY NAME'S JOHN LEPERT, 47 80 BRIGHT ROAD. I'M A BOARD MEMBER IN THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? I THINK I DON'T HAVE A QUESTION. NOPE, NO QUESTION. ALRIGHT, GREAT. ALRIGHT. IS THERE A, IS THERE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINOR PROJECT REVIEW WITH NO CONDITIONS? I WILL. SO MOVE SECOND. MR. COTTER? YES. MS. COOPER? YES. STANDER? YES. MR. ALEXANDER? YES. YOU'VE BEEN APPROVED. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. ALRIGHT, WAIT FOR MIKE TO COME BACK. OH YEAH. DOES SOMEONE WANNA GO OUT AND GET OKAY. THANK YOU . OKAY. ALL RIGHT. OUR NEXT [Case #24-042ARB-MPR] CASE IS NUMBER 24 DASH 0 4 2 A-R-B-M-P-R. THIS IS FOR THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AT 1 29 SOUTH HIGH STREET. THIS IS A MINOR PROJECT REVIEW. THIS IS A PROPOSAL FOR EXTERIOR MODIFICATIONS TO AN EXISTING BUILDING IN HISTORIC IN HISTORIC DUBLIN. THE 0.25 ACRE SITE IS ZONED HDHF HISTORIC SOUTH DISTRICT AND IS LOCATED NORTHWEST OF THE INTERSECTION OF SOUTH HIGH STREET AND JOHN WRIGHT WRIGHT LANE. UH, MR. CONDO WILL BE MAKING OUR PRESENTATION THIS EVENING, SO WHENEVER YOU'RE READY. [00:15:01] THANK YOU MR. CHAIRMAN AND GOOD EVENING BOARD MEMBERS. THIS IS A REQUEST FOR REVIEW AND APPROVAL OF A MINOR PROJECT AT 1 29 SOUTH HIGH STREET PROPOSING EXTERIOR MODIFICATIONS TO AN EXISTING BUILDING IN HISTORIC DUBLIN. THE SITE IS OUTLINED IN YELLOW AND IS LOCATED NORTHWEST OF THE INTERSECTION OF SOUTH HIGH STREET IN JOHN WRIGHT LANE. AND THE PORTION OF THE BUILDING HIGHLIGHTED AS ONE IS THE HISTORIC ORIGINAL STRUCTURE BUILT CIRCA 1880, WHEREAS PORTION TWO DENOTES THE REAR ADDITIONS BUILT IN 1988. THE SITE IS ZONED HISTORIC DISTRICT HISTORIC SOUTH. BOTH THE HISTORIC PORTION OF THE STRUCTURE AND THE REAR ADDITIONS ARE CURRENTLY CLAD IN SYNTHETIC WOOD SHAKE IN VARIOUS STATES OF MAINTENANCE OR DISREPAIR. THE SIDING MATERIAL IS NOT ORIGINAL AND DOES NOT MATCH THE STYLE OF SIDING IN THE TIME PERIOD OF THE HISTORIC STRUCTURE. THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE IS CURRENTLY PAINTED PEWTER GREEN WITH WHITE TRIM. THE CONCRETE MASONRY UNIT FOUNDATION IN THE OF THE REAR EDITION IS CURRENTLY EXPOSED. THE APPLICANT PROPOSES SMOOTH HARDY PLANK LAP SIDING AND SMOOTH HARDY TRIM AS WELL AS THE USE OF SHERWIN WILLIAMS PURE WHITE AND PEWTER GREEN PAINT. PURE WHITE IS LISTED IN THE PRE-APPROVED PAINT COLORS AS A RECOMMENDED BODY COLOR FOR THE BUILDING'S TIME PERIOD. AND PEWTER GREEN IS THE EXISTING PAINT COLOR OF THE STRUCTURE. A NARROWER SIDING REVEAL OF FOUR INCHES WILL BE USED FOR THE HISTORIC FRONT OF THE STRUCTURE WHERE A WIDER SIDING REVEAL OF SEVEN INCHES WILL BE USED FOR THE REAR ADDITIONS OF THE STRUCTURE PUTTING THE CHAMBER INTO GREATER COMPLIANCE WITH THE HISTORIC DESIGN GUIDELINES, WHICH RECOMMENDS THAT ADDITIONS BE CLEARLY DISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE ORIGINAL HISTORIC STRUCTURE. THE APPLICANT IS ALSO PROPOSING THE SIDING ON THE HISTORIC BUILDING BE PAINTED PURE WHITE AND THE TRIM BE PEWTER GREEN. THIS COLOR SCHEME WILL BE INVERTED FOR THE REAR ADDITIONS OF OF THE BUILDING WITH PEWTER GREEN SIDING AND PURE WHITE TRIM HELPING TO DISTINGUISH THE ADDITION FROM THE HISTORIC BUILDING. STAFF IS SUPPORTIVE OF THESE PROPOSED EXTERIOR MODIFICATIONS AS THEY SUPPORT THE HISTORIC CHARACTER OF THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE AND CLEARLY DISTINGUISHED THE ORIGINAL FRONT STRUCTURE FROM ITS REAR ADDITIONS. THE APPLICANT IS ALSO PROPOSING TO COVER THE CURRENTLY EXPOSED CONCRETE MASONRY UNIT FOUNDATION OF THE REAR ADDITIONS WITH THE PROPOSED HARDY PLANK LAP SIDING AND THE FOUNDATION ITSELF WILL BE PAINTED TO MATCH THE REAR SIDING. THIS PROPOSAL WILL DISGUISE THE UNFINISHED CONCRETE MASONRY UNIT BRINGING THE EXTERIOR INTO GREATER COMPLIANCE WITH CURRENT HISTORIC PRESERVATION PRACTICES. THE MINOR PROJECT REVIEW CRITERIA ARE MET OR NOT APPLICABLE AND STAFF RECOMMENDS APPROVAL OF THE MINOR PROJECT REVIEW. WITH THAT, I WILL BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS FOR THE BOARD. THANK YOU. ANY ANY QUESTIONS? NONE. I HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS. UM, THE TRIM, IS IT GOING TO MATCH THE EXACT WIDTH OF THE CURRENT TRIM? YOU'VE MENTIONED WHAT THE MATERIAL IS AND WHAT THE COLOR IS, BUT IN TERMS OF THE SIZING OF THE TRIM, SARAH SHAKING HER HEAD. UH, YEAH, THE SIZING OF THE TRIM WILL MATCH WHAT'S CURRENTLY THERE SO THE WIDTHS WILL ALL MATCH WHAT'S THERE. OKAY. NOW THAT IT'S A LITTLE MORE CHALLENGING TO INSTALL SIDING WITHOUT CORNER BOARDS, UM, WHICH, WHICH SHOWS IN THE PHOTOGRAPH HOW THE SIDING'S INSTALLED WITHOUT CORNER BOARDS, ARE THEY GONNA INSTALL THE SIDING THE SAME WAY OR ARE THEY GONNA INTRODUCE CORNER BOARDS? UM, I WILL DEFER TO THE APPLICANT THAT. OKAY. HELLO, I'M JOHN CHE, CITY OF DUBLIN. SO THE QUESTION WAS ABOUT THE CORNER BOARDS. ARE YOU GOING TO, ARE YOU GOING TO, UH, INSTALL THE SIDING THE WAY THE PHOTOGRAPHS SHOW WITHOUT ANY CORNER BOARDS WHERE YOU MIGHT MIRE? WE'LL BE ADDING THE CORNER BOARDS 'CAUSE WITH THE HARDY BOARD THE WAY IT WILL GO IN, YOU'D HAVE TO ADD THE CORNER BOARDS ON THERE. OKAY. SORRY. AND ARE THEY GONNA BE ABOUT THE SAME WIDTH AS THE TRIM ON THE WINDOWS OR? YES. UH, WE WENT OUT AND MEASURED. IT'S GOING, WE'RE GOING TO USE THE EXACT SAME WIDTH OF THE TRIM AND EVERYTHING WILL BE THE SAME. OKAY. ALRIGHT SIR, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR THE APPLICANT? OKAY. NOPE. HAVE WE HAD ANY PUBLIC COMMENT? WE HAVE NOT. OKAY. ALRIGHT. IS THERE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINOR PROJECT? SO MOVED SECOND? YES. MS. COOPER? YES. MS. DAMER? YES. MR. ALEXANDER? YES. MR. JEWEL? YES. OKAY. THANK YOU. YOU'VE BEEN APPROVED. OKAY. ALRIGHT. OUR NEXT CASE IS, [Case #24-045ARB-MPR ] UH, CASE NUMBER 24 DASH 0 4 5 A-R-B-M-P-R. THIS IS 36 38 NORTH [00:20:01] HIGH STREET GARAGE DOORS. THIS IS A MINOR PROJECT REVIEW AND WAIVER. THE PROPOSALS FOR EXTERIOR MODIFICATIONS PLUS A WAIVER TO A PROPOSED TWO STORY BUILDING IN HISTORIC DISTRICT. THE 0.25 ACRE LOT IS OWNED HDHC HISTORIC CORE DISTRICT AND IS LOCATED NORTHWEST TO THE INTERSECTION OF NORTH HIGH STREET AND WING HILL LANE. SARAH, WHENEVER YOU'RE READY. THANK YOU MR. CHAIRMAN. WE'LL JUMP RIGHT INTO 36 38 NORTH HIGH. THE SITE IS ZONED HISTORIC DISTRICT HISTORIC CORE AND IT'S SHOWN HERE IN YELLOW ON THE SLIDE. IT'S SURROUNDED, UM, BY THE SAME ZONING EXCEPT ON THE EAST SIDE WHERE WE SEE HISTORIC RESIDENTIAL. AGAIN, THE SITE IS, UH, SHOWN IN YELLOW AT THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF NORTH HIGH AND WING HILL. THE BUILDINGS, UM, THAT ARE UNDERNEATH THE ORANGE STAR HAVE BEEN DEMOLISHED AT THIS POINT AND THE WALL AND THE FAMOUS TWO STORY PRIVY IS AT THE BLUE STAR BEING PRESERVED AND REBUILT. THESE ARE THE EXISTING CONDITIONS. RIGHT NOW IT'S A , A WORK IN PROGRESS AS WE SEE. THIS IS THE APPROVED SITE PLAN, WHICH WAS PART OF THE FINAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN, WHICH WAS APPROVED WITH CONDITIONS AND A WAIVER IN DECEMBER OF 2022. AND TONIGHT WE'RE LOOKING FOR A MINOR PROJECT WITH A WAIVER FOR THE GARAGE DOOR MATERIAL CHANGE. THE LOCATIONS ARE SHOWN WITH THE ARROWS AND IT'S ONLY ON THE RESIDENTIAL BUILDING THAT FACES BLACKSMITH LANE. THIS IS THE AFFECTED RESIDENTIAL ELEVATION. THE GARAGE DOORS ARE HIGHLIGHTED HERE AND THIS WAS ORIGINALLY APPROVED FOR WOOD CLAD DOORS. THE APPLICANT IS REQUESTING A COMPOSITE DOOR AND THE SAME DESIGN. THE MATERIAL IS RIGHT UP HERE, UH, FOR YOU TO SEE. IT IS MANUFACTURED BY CLOPAY AND IT'S PART OF THEIR ELEMENTS COLLECTION. THESE WERE THE APPROVED MATERIALS FROM THE FINAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN. UM, WE SEE THE PROPOSED GARAGE DOOR, UH, FORMAT, IF YOU WILL, STYLE IN THE UPPER RIGHT HAND CORNER. AND THE APPLICANT IS PROPOSING THE SAME PAINT FINISH AS PREVIOUSLY APPROVED, NAMELY GRAPEY AND PAVED STONE AS HIGHLIGHTED IN THE BLUE BOX. SO MOST WAIVER CRITERIA ARE MET. THREE ARE NOT APPLICABLE. THE FIRST CRITERION IS NOT, UH, MET. IT'S NOT CAUSED BY UNIQUE SITE CONDITIONS. THE FOURTH CRITERION IS FOR CONVENIENCE, ALTHOUGH STAFF SUPPORTS EASY MAINTENANCE, ESPECIALLY ON NEW CONSTRUCTION WHERE THE MATERIALS MIMIC HISTORIC MATERIALS. SO STAFF OVERALL SUPPORTS THE WAIVER. THE MINOR PROJECT CRITERIA ARE MET OUTRIGHT, MET WITH THE WAIVER OR NOT APPLICABLE. SO STAFF IS RECOMMENDING APPROVAL OF THE WAIVER FOR COMPOSITE GARAGE DOORS AND APPROVAL OF THE MINOR PROJECT WITH NO CONDITIONS. AND JUST TO CLARIFY FOR EVERYBODY, WE'VE APPROVED THIS DOOR BEFORE. YES, WE HAVE. SO IT'S ON OUR ALTERNATE ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS LIST. YES. THE SAME ONES ON 180 1 SOUTH HIGH. RIGHT. FOR, FOR A NEW CONSTRUCTION COMPOSER DOOR. YEP. YEP. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS FOR SARAH? IS THE APPLICANT HERE? I AM, UH, JOHN MONTGOMERY, UH, 1 0 6 0 KINGS MILL PARKWAY. I'M WITH HANLIN ALDI, UH, REPRESENTING, UH, FOR TIM LY THE ARCHITECT. DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD REGARDING THE GARAGE DOORS? NO. NO SIR. ANYBODY HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? YEAH, I WAS JUST CURIOUS WHAT INITIATED THE CHANGE? UH, ROW MAINTENANCE, UH, FROM THE BUILDING OWNER, UM, CEDAR SIDE OR CEDAR CLAD WOOD DOOR. UM, YOU WOULD RATHER THE, UH, COMPOSITE ELEMENT JUST TO SAVE ON MAINTENANCE COSTS DOWN THE ROAD. OKAY. HAVE WE HAD ANY PUBLIC COMMENT? WE HAVE NOT. OKAY. ALRIGHT. IS THERE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE WAIVER REQUEST TO PERMIT THE COMPOSITE GARAGE DOORS? I'LL MOVE. I'LL SECOND. MR. JEWEL? YES. YES. MS. DAMER? YES. MS. COOPER? [00:25:01] YES. MR. ALEXANDER? YES. THANK YOU. YOU'VE BEEN APPROVED. IT WAS A WAIVER. YOU NEED TO MPR TOO. OH, OKAY. I'M SORRY. . OKAY. , I'M LOOKING AHEAD. ALRIGHT, NOW WE NEED TO APPROVE THE MINOR PROJECT. I'LL GO AHEAD AND MAKE THAT MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINOR PROJECT. I'LL SECOND. MS. DAMER? YES. MR. JEWEL? YES. MR. ALEXANDER? YES. MR. KOTTER? YES. MS. COOPER? YES. OKAY. NOW YOU'VE BEEN APPROVED. ALRIGHT. ALRIGHT. OUR OUR AND JOHN, PLEASE DON'T FORGET TO PICK UP YOUR GARAGE DOOR. ALRIGHT, OUR NEXT CASE [Case #24-022ARB-INF ] IS CASE NUMBER 24 DASH 0 2 2 ARB INF. THIS IS FOR 40 EAST BRIDGE STREET. THIS IS AN INFORMAL REVIEW. UM, IT'S INFORMAL REVIEW AND FEEDBACK FOR REMODEL AND CONSTRUCTION OF AN ADDITION TO AN EXISTING HOME IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. THE 0.32 ACRE SITE IS ZONED HDHR, HISTORIC RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT AND IS LOCATED NORTHEAST OF THE INTERSECTION OF NORTH BLACKSMITH LANE AND EAST EAST BRIDGE STREET. SO, SARAH, WHENEVER YOU'RE READY. THANK YOU AGAIN, MR. CHAIRMAN. AND WE'LL JUMP RIGHT INTO THIS ONE. THE PROJECT LOCATION IS ADJACENT TO BRIDGE STREET BETWEEN NORTH BLACKSMITH AND NORTH RIVERVIEW STREET. IT'S ADJACENT TO 1622 NORTH HIGH, RIGHT ACROSS BLACKSMITH LANE FROM THAT FUTURE PROJECT. THIS SLIDE HERE SHOWS SOME EXISTING CONTEXT. THE PROJECT SITE AND THE HOUSE IS SHOWN IN YELLOW WITH NUMBERS CORRESPONDING TO THE DIFFERENT VIEWS. UM, AND NEIGHBORHOOD CONTEXT. THE PHOTO ON THE LEFT SHOWS THE CURRENT RIVER VIEW ELEVATION. THE ORIGINAL HOUSE IS DATED CIRCA 1850. THERE'S AN ADDITION OF UNKNOWN AGE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THAT PHOTO. AND THEN OBVIOUSLY PORCH MODIFICATIONS WERE MADE OVER THE YEARS. ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THAT PHOTO, THE DETAIL ON THE RIGHT INDICATES THAT THE BRICK FOUNDATION FOR THE PORCH MAY NOT BE ORIGINAL. IT'S NOT CONTINUOUS, UH, WITH THE STONE FOUNDATION. SO WE THINK WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF INVESTIGATION TO DO THERE. THE LEFT PHOTO HERE SHOWS THE FACADE FACING BRIDGE STREET WITH THE PROMINENT FRONT PORCH. THE RIGHT PHOTO SHOWS DETAILS OF THAT SAME PORCH AND MATERIALS. AND AGAIN, WE CAN SEE THAT THE BRICK BASE AND THE STONE FOUNDATION MAY NOT BE ORIGINAL. THERE ARE TWO SETS OF SIMPLE COLUMNS IN TWO DIFFERENT STYLES ON THIS PORCH. THEY'RE BOTH ROUND AND SQUARE AND THAT SUGGESTS A POTENTIAL PORCH EDITION. AT SOME POINT, WE JUST DON'T KNOW. UM, WE HAVE LOOKED AT HISTORIC PHOTOS AND HAVE NOT FOUND ANY CLOSE ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A DETERMINATION. AND OBVIOUSLY AT SOME POINT THE WINDOWS WERE ADDED ON THAT PORCH TO ENCLOSE IT. WE ALSO SEE SCALLOP SHINGLES ON THE SECOND FLOOR AND ASBESTOS SHINGLES COVERING THE ORIGINAL LOWER SIDING HERE. THE PHOTO ON THE LEFT SHOWS THE FACADE FACING BLACKSMITH. NOTE THE ADDITIONS ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE OF THAT PHOTO. AND ON THE RIGHT HAND SIDE OF THAT PHOTO WE SEE THE BRIDGE STREET PORCH WRAPPING AROUND THIS SIDE. UM, AGAIN, NOTE THE SQUARE COLUMNS HERE WE SEE THE SAME SCALLOP SHINGLES ON THE SECOND STORY, ALTHOUGH THERE SEEMS TO BE PERHAPS ORIGINAL LAP SIDING OR A PATCH OF SOME KIND HAPPENING. UM, JUST BETWEEN THAT EVE AND THE ADDITION, UM, THE RIGHT PHOTO SHOWS THE LANDMARK DUPLEX PRIVY, WHAT WE CALL THE DUPLEX PRIVY AND THE HISTORIC STAIRS THAT LEAD TO BLACKSMITH LANE. THIS IS THE PROPOSED SITE LAYOUT AND THE ORIGINAL HOUSE IS OUTLINED IN ORANGE. AND THE ADDITIONS ARE SHOWN IN LIGHTER GRAY. ITEMS TO NOTE ARE THE LOCATION OF THE DUPLEX PRIVY AND THE HISTORIC STA STAIRS TO BE PRESERVED. THE 11 FOOT AND 15 FOOT HIGHWAY EASEMENTS, WHICH ARE SET ASIDE FOR SIDEWALKS, ROAD IMPROVEMENTS, UTILITIES, THAT SORT OF THING, A PROPOSED ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT IS LOCATED HERE. IT IS THE SUBJECT OF A SIZE WAIVER FOR YOU [00:30:01] ALL TO COMMENT UPON. TONIGHT AT MINOR PROJECT, WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO HEAR FROM THE APPLICANT HOW THE A DU IS GOING TO BE USED. THERE ARE LIMITATIONS AND REQUIREMENTS IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT CODE THAT TALK ABOUT SIZE OWNER OCCUPIED, NOT SEPARATE OWNERSHIP. THERE'S ABOUT FIVE OR SIX CRITERIA IN THERE THAT, UM, WE'LL NEED TO HEAR SPECIFICS ON. UM, THE HOUSE HAS HISTORICALLY BEEN ADDRESSED OFF OF EAST BRIDGE STREET AND THIS WAS BEFORE THE BRIDGE WAS RECONSTRUCTED IN THE 1930S WHERE IT WAS RAISED AND THAT BIG RETAINING WALL WAS CREATED. THUS, SORT OF PUTTING THIS HOUSE BELOW STREET LEVEL, THE APPLICANT WOULD LIKE TO USE BRIDGE STREET AS THE FRONT FOR MATHEMATICAL SETBACK BENEFITS. UM, THAT THE CODE REQUIRES THAT THE FUNCTIONAL FRONT MUST BE THE SAME AS THAT DETERMINED FRONT. SO WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT, UM, THOSE TWO CRITERIA BLEND WITH EACH OTHER. WE SUPPORT THIS IF AGAIN, THE ARCHITECTURE SUPPORTS IT AND THE FUNCTIONAL FRONT OF THE HOUSE SUPPORTS IT, WE ARE ASKING YOU TO COMMENT ON THAT QUESTION AS WELL. THERE ARE DESIGN IMPLICATIONS FOR THOSE SETBACK OPTIONS AS SHOWN HERE. THE ORANGE LINES INDICATE THE SETBACKS WITH BRIDGE STREET AS THE FRONT AND YOU SEE KIND OF THE BUILDING ENVELOPE WITHIN THE ORANGE BOX. AND THEN THE BLUE INDICATE THE SETBACKS WITH RIVERVIEW AS THE FRONT. REGARDLESS. GUIDELINE GOALS ARE ADDITIONS NEED TO BE KEPT TO THE REAR OR AT LEAST SET BACK FROM THE ORIGINAL FACADE. CONSISTENT SETBACKS NEED TO BE MAINTAINED ALONG STREET FRONTAGES. SO THESE GOALS OBVIOUSLY AND AND FUNDAMENTALLY AFFECT THE DESIGN OF THIS PROPERTY. THIS IS A VIEW OF NORTH RIVERVIEW STREET WITH THE PROPOSED ADJACENT HOUSES 17 AND 27 NORTH RIVERVIEW THAT ARE CURRENTLY, UH, UNDER REVIEW. NORTH IS TO THE RIGHT IN THIS LAYOUT. UH, THE DARKER GRAY SHOWS THE EXISTING HOUSES. AND JUST TO WALK YOU THROUGH THIS, UM, NOTE THAT NUMBER 20 SEVEN'S LAYOUT ISN'T THE MOST RECENT PROPOSAL, BUT IT GIVES AN IDEA OF THE STREETSCAPE. UM, THE SOLID LINE FOR 27 IS THE EXISTING HOUSE POSITION. THE DASHED LINE IS THE PROPOSED HOUSE POSITION. IF YOU REMEMBER, THEY'RE PLANNING ON MOVING THAT HOUSE SLIGHTLY. SO THAT'S WHY THERE'S TWO LINES THERE. THE DASHED BLUE LINE AT THE REAR IS THE HIGHWAY EASEMENT FOR EACH OF THE PROPERTIES. AND THEN REGARDING THE FRONT ALIGNMENT, JUST NOTE HOW THAT ALIGNMENT ROUGHLY PARALLELS THE CURVE OF NORTH RIVERVIEW STREET. UM, THOSE HOUSES ARE SET BACK A CONSISTENT DISTANCE FROM THE EDGE OF PAVEMENT. THIS IS A SYNOPSIS OF THE WAIVER REQUEST THAT WOULD BE BROUGHT FORWARD, UM, WITH A MINOR PROJECT AT THIS POINT. UH, THE LOT IS A LITTLE BIT OVER 13,000 SQUARE FEET. THE APPLICANT WILL NEED TO DO A SURVEY AT THE NEXT STAGE FOR ACCURACY. THE GREEN IS NOTING THE BOARD'S PURVIEW OF 20% TO ISSUE WAIVERS AND THE APPLICANT IS INFORMALLY REQUESTING FEEDBACK FOR A LOT COVERAGE WAIVER OF 5% AND AN ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT SIZE INCREASE OF 20%. SO WE'RE ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THAT AS WELL. MOVING ON TO THE MASSING OF THE PROPOSAL. THIS IS LOOKING SOUTHEAST AGAIN. THE HISTORIC HOME IS IN THE DARKER GRAY AND ADDITIONS ARE IN THE LIGHTER COLOR. STEPH IS PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS ELEVATION. IT APPEARS TO BE THE PRIMARY FACADE, UM, WHICH IS IN CONFLICT WITH THE CONCEPT OF USING BRIDGE STREET AS THE PRIMARY FACADE. UH, [00:35:01] THIS CREATES A POTENTIAL VISUAL CONFUSION AND HIDES THE ORIGINAL HOUSE. AND HERE WE HAVE AN ADDITION DIRECTLY ONTO THE HISTORIC HOUSE WITHOUT A BREAK OR A HYPHEN. THAT'S NOT PER THE GUIDELINES. THIS IS THE MODELING SHOWING BLACKSMITH LANE AND THE ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT AT THE REAR. THIS MODEL SHOWS BLACKSMITH LANE AND THE ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT FROM A DIFFERENT DIRECTION. AND THIS IS ANOTHER VIEW OF THAT ADDITION. WITHOUT THE HYPHEN OR THE BREAK, WE SEE THAT, UM, THIS ROOF FORM DOES NOT MEET THE MEET THE ROOF PITCH CRITERIA. WE'LL NEED A WAIVER AND IT AGAIN, APPEARS TO HIDE THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE AND ISN'T AS SYMPATHETIC WITH THE ORIGINAL HOUSE AS IT COULD BE. THIS IS THE MODEL LOOKING NORTHWEST, HIGHLIGHTING THE BRIDGE STREET FACADE. AGAIN, WE'RE THINKING THAT THE RIVERVIEW STREET FACADE IS OVERPOWERING THE ORIGINAL FACADE. THERE'S A FLAT ROOF SHOWN HERE THAT WOULD NEED A WAIVER. THERE'S I THINK SOME OTHER FLAT ROOF PIECES THAT WOULD NEED WAIVERS AS WELL. TAKING A LOOK AT THE ELEVATIONS, THE HOUSE IS ON THE LEFT. THE A DU IS ON THE RIGHT AND THE HISTORIC HOUSE IS OUTLINED IN ORANGE. THIS IS WHAT YOU CAN SEE FROM THIS ELEVATION. THE MATERIALS PROPOSED AT THIS POINT ARE VERTICAL SIDING BOARD AND BATTEN THREE DIFFERENT ROOF TYPES, STONE AND BRICK. FOR THE ROOFS WE SEE ASPHALT SHINGLES, STANDING SEA METAL AND A FLAT ROOF ON THE HYPHEN WITH A GUARDRAIL DETAIL ON IT. THE WINDOW PLACEMENTS HERE ARE SOME ARE MORE TRADITIONAL, SOME ARE HORIZONTAL, NOT MEETING THE INTENT OF THE GUIDELINES. AND EVEN FOR THE VERTICAL WINDOWS, THE PROPORTIONS COULD BE A LITTLE BIT BETTER GUIDED BY THE HISTORIC BUILDING ITSELF. THIS VIEW SHOWS BLACKSMITH ON THE LEFT AND RIVERVIEW ON THE RIGHT. AND THIS IS THE VIEW THAT FACES BRIDGE STREET. SO HERE ARE THE ORIGINAL HOUSES OUTLINED IN ORANGE. WE SEE THE SAME COMBINATION OF MATERIALS. AND HERE SOME OF THE WINDOWS ARE SQUARE NOT SUPPORTED BY THE GUIDELINES. UM, AND AGAIN, THE SOME OF THE VERTICAL WINDOW PROPORTIONS ARE A LITTLE OFF. AND WE SEE THAT SAME FLATEN ROOF WITH THIS, UM, GUARDRAIL DETAIL. THIS ELEVATION FACES BLACKSMITH LANE. SO THIS IS THE A DU. THE ORIGINAL HOUSE IS SHOWN HERE. AND UH, WE'RE NOTING THE MIX OF MATERIALS AS SHOWN. THIS ELEVATION FACES NORTH RIVERVIEW HERE. THE ORIGINAL HOUSE IS OUTLINED IN ORANGE AGAIN. AND WE REALLY SEE THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS FACADE ON THIS VIEW. UM, AND IT ALSO THIS FACADE, THE AREA THAT IS NOT OUTLINED IN ORANGE SITS WELL FORWARD OF THE ORIGINAL HOUSE AS SHOWN ON THAT SITE PLAN COMPARISON WITH 17 AND 27. AND AGAIN, WE SEE MODERN SQUARE WINDOWS IN A VARIETY OF ROOF FORMS. SO DISCUSSION QUESTIONS FOR TONIGHT IS DOES THE BOARD SUPPORT THE ORIENTATION OF THE BUILDING WHERE EAST BRIDGE STREET IS THE FRONT? DOES THE BOARD SUPPORT THE LOT COVERAGE AND THE A DU SIZE WAIVERS? DOES THE BOARD SUPPORT THE PROPOSED MASS SCALE AND FORMS AND THEIR RESPONSE TO THE CODE AND GUIDELINES? AND WHAT ABOUT THE ROOF PITCH WAIVERS? AND DOES THE BOARD HAVE ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE NUMBER AND TYPE OF PROPOSED MATERIALS? AND THEN CERTAINLY ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU'D WISH TO COMMENT UPON. AND WITH THAT, I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. AND THE APPLICANTS ARE ALSO HERE. ANY INITIAL QUESTIONS? JUST A COUPLES HERE. SO, UM, FROM THE, WHERE THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING IS TO LET'S SAY WHERE THE ENTRANCE IS TODAY. I MEAN, IS THERE LIKE A, UH, WOULD YOU EVER CHANGE WHERE THE FRONT ENTRANCE [00:40:01] IS ON A HISTORIC BUILDING? IS THAT, I MEAN, I SAW YOU PUT THE, BOTH THE SQUARES AROUND THERE AND SAY, HEY, WE COULD I GET THE CODE? IT SAYS WHERE THE TRADI WHERE THE FUNCTIONAL FRONT ENTRANCES, WE HAVE A HISTORIC BUILDING THAT FACES A DIFFERENT DIRECTION. IS THERE SOME HISTORY THAT SAYS YOU COULD, THAT WE WOULD SAY, HEY, WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THE, OR, UH, CHANGE WHAT THE FRONT IS OF A HISTORIC STRUCTURE? IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'VE EVER HEARD OF? JUST, WE DON'T HAVE ANY GUIDANCE OTHER THAN WHAT WAS QUOTED IN THE STAFF REPORT YEAH. IN OUR CODE. UM, I WILL SAY THAT WHEN BRIDGE STREET WAS RAISED WITH THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE BRIDGE, IT DOES APPEAR THAT THAT FUNCTIONAL FRONT DID GET SWITCHED TO RIVERVIEW. I HAVE ALSO EXPERIENCE IN OTHER HISTORIC TOWNS WHERE ROADS HAVE BEEN VACATED AND SO THE, THE FRONTS OF THE HOUSES HAVE BECOME THE BACKS, IF YOU WILL. YEP. AND VICE VERSA. IT ALWAYS MAKES FOR A LITTLE BIT OF AN AWKWARD SITUATION. I THINK IN THIS CASE, GIVEN THE LAYOUT THAT WE SEE, IT WOULD NOT BE OUT OF THE QUESTION FOR THE PATHWAY TO COME TO THE SIDE OF THE PORCH. UM, YOU KNOW, JUST ON THAT LOWER RIGHT HAND CORNER MM-HMM. OF THE ORANGE BOX THERE, YOU COULD COME IN OKAY. AT THAT CORNER AND STILL USE THE HISTORIC FRONT DOOR. BUT THE QUESTION MAYBE IS, IS IT A CHO UH, IS IT A CHOICE OR HERE, I KNOW WE'RE TRYING, WE'RE TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO, AS YOU SAID, MATHEMATICALLY KIND OF MAKE THE SPACE WORK OUT. THERE'S A MATHEMATICAL PROBLEM AND THEN THERE'S AN AESTHETIC PROBLEM THAT I THINK, I MEAN, WE'LL WE'LL DISCUSS THAT, BUT IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT COMES FROM, I MEAN IT'S REALLY TRYING TO DISCUSS WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE, BUT OKAY. TO ADD A LITTLE BIT TO THAT, IT'S NOT UNUSUAL AND YOU'LL SEE IT IN GERMAN VILLAGE SURE. FOR WHAT WAS ONCE THE FRONT DOOR BEING ACKNOWLEDGED. BUT IT MAY BE A PLANE OF GLASS OR IT MAY BE A DOOR WHERE THE STOOP IS REMOVED OR THE HARDWARE IS REMOVED SO YOU CAN'T USE IT. SO THE FRONT DOOR IS STILL IN EVIDENCE, BUT, BUT MANY TIMES BECAUSE THE DRIVE IS AT THE SIDE AND THERE'S AN ADDITION IN THE BACK, THE LOCATION OF WHERE YOU GET INTO THE STRUCTURE CHANGES BECAUSE OF, BECAUSE DIFFERENT USE PATTERNS. BUT THERE'S STILL AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF WHAT THAT, WHAT THAT DOOR WAS. SO, SO THAT REALLY DOES THAT'S, THAT WAS MY QUESTION. EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE ENTERING ON IN A, IN A DIFFERENT SIDE FROM NORTH TO SOUTH, IT'S STILL RECOGNIZED AT THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING. THAT'S THE WAY I ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD. IT'S STILL THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING. RIGHT. AS FAR AS THE POSTAL SERVICE OR WHOEVER'S CONCERNED. YEAH. SO, 'CAUSE THAT WAS MY OTHER THING TOO, IS WHAT'S THE IMPACT OF THIS BEING CHANGED? WOULD YOU HAVE TO CHANGE ADDRESSES AND ALL THE IMPACT OF THAT? DO YOU HAVE TO CONTINUE TO MAKE THAT THE ACCESS ACCESS PIECE FOR AS FAR AS THE POSTAL SERVICE IS CONCERNED OR WHATEVER? SO THERE'S AN INTERESTING PART OF OUR ZONING CODE, AND I WAS LOOKING AT THIS TODAY BECAUSE SOME COMMUNITIES ARE REALLY SPECIFIC IN THE CODE ABOUT WHAT'S FRONT. OUR CODE DOES GIVE THE OPTION, UM, IF IT'S FACING A STREET. HOWEVER, THE CODE IS VERY SPECIFIC ON WHAT, WHAT THE REAR LOT LINE IS. AND IT SAYS TYPICALLY THE REAR LOT LINE IS THE LINE OPPOSITE THE FRONT LOT LINE THAT SEPARATES THE LOT FROM AN ALLEY REAR LANE OR FROM THE REAR OF ANOTHER LOT THAT MEANS TWO BACKS. SO IT'S PRETTY CLEAR FROM OUR CODE WHAT THE REAR IS FROM THE ZONE, FROM THE ZONING POINT OF VIEW. UM, SO I MEAN THAT MAY, MAY IM IN IMPACT OUR DISCUSSION, BUT, BUT THERE'S, THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE CODE. SO I THINK THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED TOO. DOES THIS, DOES THIS TRIGGER A VARIANCE IF, IF WE ALLOW FOR THE IMPOSITION OF THESE LOT LINES, THE SETBACKS IN A DIFFERENT WAY? 'CAUSE THAT'S CONTRARY TO WHAT THE CODE READS. NOW JUST, JUST ALSO A REMINDER BEFORE WE GET INTO OUR DISCUSSION IS FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES ON THE ADJACENT TO PROPERTIES, A BLUE LINE THAT YOU SEE, WE, WE TOLD THEM AT THE REAR THAT WE WOULD ACTUALLY SUPPORT A WAIVER TO REDUCE THE REAR SETBACK FOR TWO REASONS. ONE, THAT THEY COULD ACCESS THE GARAGE OFF THE ALLEY, DIFFERENT SITUATION HERE, BUT PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANTLY THAT THEY COULD GET MORE OF THE MASS BACK OFF THOSE HOUSES. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, DEPENDING ON HOW OUR CONVERSATION GOES HERE, THAT'S ANOTHER AVENUE THAT MIGHT BE AVAILABLE TO THE APPLICANTS. BUT I DON'T [00:45:01] WANT TO GET YEAH. TOO FAR IN THERE. BUT, BUT THE NORTH ONE'S RIGHT? THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE SIDE YARD SET BACK ON THE NORTH. YEAH, ON THE NORTH ONE. YEAH. REAR ONE'S ON BLACKSMITH. YEAH. BLACK. YEAH. OKAY. AND THEN ONE MORE SARAH, JUST THE OTHER, JUST TO MAKE SURE ON THE OTHER TWO FROM THE LAST COUPLE WEEK I MISSED ONE OF THE MEETINGS FROM A A A FOOTPRINT WAIVER STANDPOINT, I KNOW WE HAVE, IT'S NOT IN THE FINAL PLAN, BUT WAS THERE ANYTHING IN THERE DISCUSSED THAT THE FOOTPRINT OF THE THE TWO BUILDINGS TO THE NORTH WOULD BE LOOKING FOR A WAIVER FOR FOUR FOR FOOTPRINT WITH THIS? WITH, I'M SORRY, I'M NOT FOLLOWING. WELL, I MEAN, YOU LOOK AT THE, AS YOU SAY FROM, I FORGET THE NUMBERS TO THE NORTH OF THE PROPERTY, RIGHT? YOU HAVE A GENERAL LAYOUT OF WHAT THOSE TWO PROPERTIES COULD LOOK LIKE IN THE FUTURE 17 AND 27. SORRY. YES. AND THOSE WOULD SIT INSIDE THE CODE FOR, FOR, UM, LOT COVERAGE OR WE DON'T, I MEAN IT'S, IT'S PRELIMINARY. I JUST DON'T, I DON'T KNOW IF WE, WE KNOW THESE THINGS. WE DID, WE DID SUPPORT A WAIVER OKAY. FOR THE SMALLER ONE, UM, TO GO BEYOND OR 20%, BUT ONLY TO GET TO THIS, THE SQUARE FOOTAGE OF THE HOUSE OF 27 54. OKAY. YES. SO THAT'S, THAT'S, SO WE, AND THAT WAS ONLY FOR ONE OF THEM AND IT WAS NOT LOT COVERAGE. IT WAS FOR THE MAXIMUM BUILDING FOOTPRINT THAT WE SAID WE AND I THINK YOU WERE GONE. YEAH, I WAS, YEAH. SO WE SAID WE WOULD SUPPORT THEM TO, TO GO BEYOND THE WAIVER, THEY HAVE TO GO GET THE VARIANCE, BUT THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO HAVE THE TWO HOMES OF THE SA OF THE SAME SIZE. OKAY. SO YOU WANT FOOTPRINT. FOOTPRINT IS THE WAIVER ON THAT ONE. OKAY. MM-HMM. . YEP. OKAY. BUT THOSE ARE STILL CONSIDERABLY LESS, NOW THE FOOTPRINT HERE IS GONNA FIT WITHIN THE FOOTPRINT NUMBER, IT'S THE OVERALL COVERAGE, CORRECT? CORRECT. IT'S THE CHALLENGE, RIGHT? YEP. THIS, THIS LOT IS SIGNIFICANTLY LARGER. IT'S ABOUT 50% LARGER THAN THOSE LOTS. YEP. CLEAR. OKAY. GOOD. I HAVE A, A QUESTION , I'M GONNA ASK IT AGAIN. UM, WHY COULDN'T YOU JUST CALL US A BIG ADDITION AND WHAT, WHAT IN THE CODE DIFFERENTIATES THIS FROM AN BIG ADDITION THAT JUST FITS UNDER THE SQUARE FOOTAGE TO AN A DU AND, AND, AND SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT I COULDN'T FIND TODAY. AND SO I JUST WANT TO, IS IT JUST THAT SEPARATE DOOR ON THE BACKSIDE OR WE HAVE A DEFINITION OF ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT IN OUR OVERALL CITY CODE AND IT SAYS A DWELLING UNIT FOR OCCUPANCY BY AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS PROVIDING SERVICES TO A PRINCIPAL USE OF THE PROPERTY SUCH AS A WATCHMAN MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL OR A TEMPORARY GUEST INCLUDING CORPORATE RESIDENCES OR AN ACCESSORY DWELLING ASSOCIATED WITH A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING TWO FAMILY DWELLING OR TOWNHOUSE DWELLING. SO THE, THE DECISION TO GO WITH AN A DU IS SOMETHING THAT THE APPLICANT WILL HAVE TO EXPLAIN. AND AGAIN, THERE ARE SPECIFIC CRITERIA WITHIN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT CODE THAT TALKS ABOUT WHERE THAT DOOR CAN BE. UM, THE NUMBER OF SQUARE FOOTAGE, THE FACT THAT THE OWNER HAS TO LIVE ON SITE, IT CANNOT BE CONDO WISE AND SPLIT OFF FROM THE MAIN PROPERTY. SO IT'S THE APPLICANT WHO CHOSE TO CLASSIFY THIS AS AN A DU, NOT THE CITY? YES. OKAY. YES. OKAY. AND SARAH, WHAT WAS THE CODE REFERENCE ON WHAT YOU JUST READ JUST FOR ME? THANKS. IT IS IN 1 53 0.002 UNDER DEFINITIONS AND IT'S UNDER DWELLING. GG. YEP. ANY OTHER? I'M SURE WE'LL HAVE QUES MORE QUESTIONS AS WE GO ALONG. ANY OTHER INITIAL QUESTIONS FOR SARAH? NO. OKAY. NO. WOULD THE APPLICANTS LIKE TO COME FORWARD? HI, KELLY BURKE. 4, 3, 8, 9 HUNTERS BEND, POWELL, OHIO. OKAY. UM, AND HAVE MY ARCHITECT HERE AS WELL. I'M THE OWNER. OKAY. DAVID KNAPP, 2 0 2 SOUTH UNION STREET, TRAVERSE CITY. OKAY. WOULD YOU'D LIKE TO MAKE A PRESENTATION OR ARE YOU JUST HERE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS OR WE'RE HERE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS? I CAN COMMENT TO SOME OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE POINTS THAT SHE WANTS FURTHER DISCUSSION ON. UM, SURE, SURE. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU'D LIKE TO PROCEED IF YOU WANNA FIRE AWAY, UM, WHY DON'T YOU GO AHEAD AND THE THINGS THAT YOU, YOU, UM, WOULD LIKE TO CLARIFY RIGHT NOW. WHY DON'T YOU GO AHEAD WITH THOSE AND THEN WE'LL, WE'LL HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU TOO. OKAY. UM, SO I APPRECIATE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MATERIAL KIND OF SCALE OF WINDOWS, SOME THINGS THAT MAY BE A BIT AHEAD OF THE, THE, THE HORSE AT THIS, UH, JUNCTURE IN THE PROJECT. BUT, UM, PRIMARILY AS YOU CAN TELL, UH, IT'S A PRETTY CHALLENGING SITE GIVING THE ORIENTATION, UM, THE CLOSE [00:50:01] PROXIMITY TO A 15 FOOT STONE WALL, YOU KNOW, ON TWO SIDES OF THE PROPERTY. SO WHAT WE CALL FRONT IS CLEARLY A SUBJECT FOR A CONVERSATION HERE. UM, SO GIVEN THAT, YOU KNOW, WE WENT THROUGH AN ANALYSIS THAT, YOU KNOW, RENDERED THAT THOSE, YOU KNOW, BLUE AND YELLOW SHAPES THERE, YOU KNOW, IF WE ADDRESS THIS BRIDGE STREET BEING THE FRONTAGE, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE PATH OF LEASE RESISTANCE PER SE, UM, WITH SOME OF THE ZONING CORD, UH, ZONING CODE SETBACKS, THE BLOCK COVERAGE. UM, SO WE WENT THROUGH THE EXERCISE OF IF WE USE BRIDGE STREET AS THE NATURAL FRONTAGE OR IF WE, UH, ADDRESS THE BUILDING WITH RIVERVIEW STREET BEING THE FRONTAGE AND UM, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A CLEAR STREET PRESENCE WITH BRIDGE STREET. SO WE DECIDED TO USE THAT ROUTE. UM, IN ADDITION TO SOME OF THE MATHEMATICAL, UH, COMPUTATIONS THAT SARAH TOUCHED ON, UM, GIVING THAT APPROACH AND EITHER, EITHER WAY, YOU KNOW, EGRESS WAS A MAJOR CONSIDERATION TO VEHI VEHICULAR EGRESS, UM, TO SUPPORT A TWO CAR GARAGE TO SUPPORT ANY KIND OF CAR GARAGE, UH, TO STAY WITHIN THE SETBACKS. UM, THE SITE REALLY GOVERNED WHERE WE WERE TO PROVIDE VEHICULAR ACCESS. YOU KNOW, WE WERE NOT ABLE TO OFF BLACKSMITH BECAUSE THE ELEVATIONAL CHANGES LIKEWISE BRIDGE STREET. UM, SO THE ONLY, THE ONLY OPTION IS THROUGH RIVERVIEW STREET AND THE ONLY OPTION FOR THAT IS ALONG THE NORTH SIDE OF THE BUILDING. UM, IT'S THAT IMPOSITION THAT REALLY KICKS US OVER THE, UM, THE LOCK COVERAGE REQUIREMENT. UM, THAT'S A HUGE DRIVEWAY. IT MEETS THE MINIMUM WIDTH. UM, NOT MUCH ADDITION TO THAT. UM, SO THE ONLY WAY TO GET TO THE THE GARAGE IS LARGE IMPERVIOUS SURFACE. UM, THE HYPHEN WE TRY TO DELINEATE HISTORIC FROM A RATHER LARGE ADDITIONAL VOLUME. IE THE GARAGE A DU UNIT. ORIGINALLY WE HAD A TWO STORY HYPHEN, UM, UH, AFTER SEEING SOME OF THE OTHER PROJECTS NEARBY ON SOUTH RIVERVIEW, UM, AND AND SCATTERED THROUGHOUT THE HISTORIC CORE, WE FELT THERE WOULD BE A FURTHER, UM, DELINEATION IF WE REDUCE IT TO SINGLE STORY AT A FLAT ROOF. UM, YOU KNOW, CLEARLY TO MARKING THE TWO, UM, THE ORIGINAL AND THE ADDITION, UM, SOME CUES TO THE, THE VOLUMES. UM, AS YOU SEE THE BLUE LINE THERE, YOU KNOW, OUR, OUR ADDITIONS IN THE WHITE GRAY, WE TRIED TO KIND OF ONE SCALE 'EM BACK FROM THE ORIGINAL FRONT OF THE HOUSE, UM, AND ALSO TRY TO FOLLOW THE SETBACK OFF OF RIVERVIEW STREET, UM, YOU KNOW, TO BE MORE CONTEXTUAL WITH THE EXISTING NEIGHBORHOOD, UM, AND TO KIND OF SHARE A STREET WALL WITH SOME OF THE, UH, THE THREE PROPERTIES TO THE NORTH. UM, SO IF, I MEAN, THAT'S A PRETTY CLEAR DIAGRAM RIGHT THERE. IF YOU, IF YOU WERE TO OFFSET THE RIVERVIEW UH, PROPERTY LINE, YOU KNOW, IT PAYS RESPECT. UM, WITH THE OTHER TWO STRUCTURES AND HOW THEY ADDRESS THE, UM, THE, UH, EAST SPOT LINE. UM, SOME OF THE VOLUMETRIC REASONINGS, YOU KNOW, WE TOOK, UH, ROOF LINES AND PITCHES FROM THE EXISTING GABLE L UM, NOTHING IS AT, UH, THE EXISTING RIDGE HEIGHT OR RIDGE ELEVATION. WE, WE STEPPED THAT BACK DOWN A COUPLE FEET. UM, ON THE MAJOR ADDITION ON THE EAST. AND, UH, THE CARRIAGE HOUSE SITS TWO FEET. THE RIDGE SITS TWO FEET BELOW THE EXISTING RIDGE OF THE GABLE L. UM, AGAIN, WE TRIED TO STEP BACK, UM, THE ADDITIONS FROM THE NORTH OR FROM THE FRONTAGE, YOU KNOW, WELL BEHIND THE FRONTAGE OF THE EXISTING HISTORIC HOME, BOTH WITH THE A DU AND THE ADDITIONS TO THE EXISTING HOME. UM, YOU KNOW, WE'RE CHOOSING TO, UH, RESTORE THE PRIVY, THE HISTORIC PRIVY, UM, TOWARD THE REAR OF THE PROPERTY AND PUT SOME NEW USE TO THAT, UM, TO BE DETERMINED. UH, WHILE IT DOES SIT WITHIN THE HIGHWAY EASEMENT, WE DON'T FEEL ANY NEED TO, UM, MAKE ANY CASE FOR ITS DEMOLITION. RATHER WE'D LIKE TO REUSE IT. UM, LIKE I WAS AT THE HISTORIC LIMESTONE STAIRS THAT COME OFF BLACKSMITH LANE. WE, UH, INTEGRATED THAT, UM, INTO THE, YOU KNOW, PRIMARY ENTRANCE WAY FOR THE A DU. UM, IT SETS ITSELF UP QUITE WELL TO BE INTEGRATED WITH A NEW, UM, WITH A NEW, UH, ADDITION. YOU KNOW, SOME CUES WE TOOK FROM THE EXISTING HOME WERE THE PORCH COLUMNS, AS YOU CAN SEE ON THAT. UM, THAT VIEW. SIMILAR PROPORTION, SIMILAR MATERIALS, UH, SIMILAR ROOF ARCHITECTURE AS WELL, ALTHOUGH IT'S A LOW, LOW PITCH. UM, YOU KNOW, VERY SIMILAR CONSTRUCTION AND DETAILING IS THE EXISTING WRAPAROUND PORCH. [00:55:02] LIKEWISE, UM, TOWARD THE BACK OF THE ADDITION OF THE EXISTING HOME, THE TWO STORY KIND OF SQUARE ADDITION BETWEEN, UM, THAT AND THE A DU, AGAIN, WE KIND OF MORE OR LESS COPIED AND PASTE, YOU KNOW, REF ROOF DETAILS FROM THE FRONT PORCH, UM, UP TO THE SECOND STORY TO GIVE US, UM, PROPER HEADROOM TO, UM, SATISFY THE SQUARE FOOTAGE AND PROGRAM PROGRAMMATIC REQUIREMENTS, UH, THAT THE CLIENT WANTED. UM, YEAH, SORRY, ONE LAST BIT AND IT'S JUST ABOUT THE MATERIALS FOR, YOU KNOW, OUR FUTURE DIALOGUE. WE WANTED TO SEPARATE, YOU KNOW, CLEARLY SEPARATE, UM, YOU KNOW, THIS HISTORIC SCALPING AND LAP SIDING WITH, UM, YOU KNOW, A DIFFERENT ORIENTATION OF, OF A WOOD TYPE SIDING, WHETHER IT'S ALL BOARD AND BATTEN OR ALL SOME KIND OF TONGUE AND GROOVE. UH, WE ARE GONNA SEPARATE IT NOT ONLY THROUGH MATERIAL AND ORIENTATION, BUT UH, COLOR AS WELL FROM THE, ITS EXISTING HISTORIC. THE, UM, YOU TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY YOU CHOSE TO ORIENT THE, THE HOUSE OR WHY YOU'RE, YOU WANT TO CONSIDER BRIDGE STREET, THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE. UH, WHY DO YOU NEED THE A DU TO BE SO LARGE? IT'S MORE OF A LIVING SITUATION. SO I, I'M A FAMILY OF FIVE THAT MOST LIKELY WOULD INHABIT JUST THE FRONT PART. WE WANNA HAVE THE OPTION TO THE, FOR THE AREA ABOVE THE GARAGES TO END UP AT KIND OF AN IN-LAW SUITE. MM-HMM, LITERALLY AN IN IN-LAW SUITE IN MY SITUATION. UM, AND YOU KNOW, AT 960 SQUARE FEET TO FIT PROBABLY A COUPLE IN THERE. IT'S STILL A LITTLE TIGHT, BUT WITHIN THE WAIVER. UM, BUT YEAH, JUST MORE FOR THE ROOM ABOVE IT AND TO HAVE AT SOME POINT PROBABLY AN IN-LAW LIVING WITH US. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT, THAT, I THINK AT SOME POINT IT'LL BE HELPFUL TO PRESENT FLOOR PLANS BECAUSE IF WE, IF WE TALK ABOUT WHY THINGS ARE WHERE THEY ARE AND POTENTIALLY WE DO DISCUSS REPOSITIONING THINGS, IF WE KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON PROGRAMMATICALLY IN THE FLOOR PLANS, SOMETIMES THE LOGIC OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS A LITTLE CLEARER TO TO US. SO I THINK AT, AT FUTURE MEETINGS THAT'LL BE HELPFUL TO SEE FLOOR PLANS. UM, THEY DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE FINISHED DRAWINGS, BUT JUST TO SEE THE FLOOR PLANS, UM, BOARD MEMBERS. OTHER, OTHER INITIAL QUESTIONS? I HAVE A QUESTION I JUST WONDERED, UM, HAVE YOU CONSIDERED, SINCE YOU HAVE THIS ADDITION, WHICH IS NOT SUBORDINATE TO THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE, IF YOU'RE FACING FROM BRIDGE STREET BECAUSE IT EXTENDS QUITE A BIT TOWARDS RIVERVIEW OR IF YOU ARE RE ORIENTING TO THE RIVERVIEW SIDE, THEN IT'S OBVIOUSLY RIGHT THERE BLOCKING OUT THE ENTIRE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE. SO MY QUESTION IS, HAS ANYTHING BEEN, HAS ANY THOUGHT BEEN GIVEN TO, YOU KNOW, TAKING THAT ADDITION, THAT MASSING THERE AND FLIPPING IT OVER TO THIS SIDE TO WHERE THIS CORNER IS, WHICH IS YOU ARE HEMMED IN FROM BRIDGE STREET, BUT IF YOU FLIPPED IT, MAYBE THAT WOULD HELP ADDRESS A LOT OF THE ISSUES. YOU WOULD JUST HAVE A LOT OF, UH, YARD I KNOW IN THE FRONT, BUT IT COULD BE VERY NICE SINCE THE PARK IS RIGHT THERE AS WELL. I DON'T KNOW IF I TOTALLY ARE YOU SAY MOVING THAT EAST TO WEST TO THE WEST SIDE. IN OTHER WORDS, WE'VE BEEN TALKING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY YOU CHOOSE THE FRONT TO BE ON BRIDGE STREET AND YET WHEN THE DRAWINGS, IT CLEARLY LOOKS LIKE THE FRONT IS ON RIVERVIEW. AND MY QUESTION WAS, AND THAT PRESENTS SOME PROBLEMS WITH THE CODE, BUT MY PRO MY QUESTION WAS HAD YOU THOUGHT ABOUT USING SOME ADDITIONS TO THE, UH, WEST SIDE OF THE, AND BASICALLY THE SOUTHWEST SIDE MAYBE CHANGING UP THE GARAGE OR THE A DU AND USING THE ADDITIONS HERE TO THE SOUTHWEST SIDE OF THE, OF THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE? I MEAN I, I THINK THE, THE FIRST THING THAT WE GOTTA FIGURE OUT, I, YOU KNOW, 17 AND 27 ARE ODD NUMBERS. 40 IS AN EVEN NUMBER. IT HAS AN ADDRESS OF BRIDGE STREET THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY THE FRONT. AND NOT TO BE CONDESCENDING IN ANY WAY, BUT IF THE WHOLE IDEA IS TO KEEP THE HISTORIC APPEAL OF THIS PLACE APPEARANCE, APPEARANCE, APPEARANCE, SHOULDN'T THE FRONT BE THE FRONT? WELL THAT'S, I WAS GONNA SAY IT CREATES SOME LIMITATIONS THAT I THINK IT'S [01:00:01] REALLY A QUESTION. WHAT IS, WHAT IS THE FRONT, BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY THE LOT'S DESIGNED, THE FRONT IS ON NORTH RIVERVIEW, YOU WOULD GENERALLY NOT CREATE A LOT THAT HAD YOUR LONGEST FACE. UM, THE FRONT YOU TYPICALLY WOULD CREATE A LOT. SO THAT'S WHAT'S UNUSUAL ABOUT YOUR LOT. YES, THE HOUSE IS SIDED TO BRIDGE STREET AND THE ADDRESS, BUT THE ZONING TELLS US THAT BLACKSMITH IS THE REAR AND THE SHAPE OF THE LOT IS TYPICALLY THE WAY YOU WOULD, YOU WOULD SUBDIVIDE OFF OF A PRIMARY STREET. SO THERE, THERE IS THIS FUNNY AMBIGUITY AND, AND FROM MY MIND TO ME, SINCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT ISSUE, I DON'T CARE WHICH ONE'S FRONT, BUT WHAT I CARE ABOUT IS THE WAY YOU, THE ADDITION IS DESIGNED TO BE, UM, SECONDARY AND, AND TO SUPPORT THE HOUSE. SO WHICHEVER ONE, AND AND I MARTY'S COMMENT, YOU KNOW, AS A DESIGN PROFESSIONAL, I WOULD'VE LOOKED AT THE SITE AND SAID, OKAY, FORGET THE PROGRAM RIGHT NOW THINK ABOUT WHERE, WHERE CAN I BUILD IN A WAY THAT SUPPORTS THIS, THE, THE STANDARDS IN, IN ANY HISTORIC DISTRICT. IT'S NOT JUST OURS. AND, AND IT WOULD BE BACK IN THAT CORNER THAT MAR THAT MARTY PICKED BECAUSE UM, IT WILL BE SUBORDINATE TO THE STRUCTURE. THE OTHER ADVAN, THE TOPOGRAPHY IS, IS TO YOUR ADVANTAGE THERE BECAUSE THINGS ARE SO TALL ON THE OTHER SIDE OF BLACKSMITH THAT IF YOU HAD A TALL ADDITION THERE OR A TALL ADDITION AND YOU PUSH IT FAR AWAY FROM THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE, IT GETS LOST IN THE, IN THE WHAT'S BEHIND IT. IT GETS LOST. EXACTLY. SEAN'S SAYING IT GETS LOST IN HOW HIGH THINGS ARE BEHIND IT. SO IT WOULD BLEND WELL, SUBORDINATE TOO THE ORIGINAL. YEAH. SO, SO SEAL TO ME IT DOESN'T MATTER WHICH YOU CALL FRONT, BUT WHAT MATTERS IS HOW IT SUPPORTS THE ARCHITECTURE. YEAH, AND I THINK THAT'S THE THING, THE WAY THIS IS DESIGNED NOW, IT'S PRETTY LONG ENGULFING THE OLD HOUSE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? I FEEL LIKE IT'S JUST SURROUNDED BY IT. THE ONLY WAY YOU'D SEE IT WOULD BE FROM EAST BRIDGE STREET. OTHER THAN THAT WE'D SEE PIECES AND PARTS OF IT FROM THERE. SO I KINDA LIKE GARY'S COMMENTS, LIKE THINK THE FOLKS, WHERE IS THAT FRONT GOING TO BE AND THEN DESIGN IT FROM THERE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? BECAUSE THEN THERE IS, LIKE MARTY SAID, THERE'S OPTIONS. IF IT WAS GOING PROPERTY LINE WAS GOING IN THE, IN THE ORANGE WAY, YOU COULD ACTUALLY BRING SOME OF THE EXISTING, THE LOT, THE FRONT YARDS OF THOSE OTHER TWO PROPERTIES ARE LARGE WELL AS WELL FROM NORTH RIVERVIEW STREET. IS THAT RIGHT? IF I REMEMBER THEY GOT BIG FRONT YARDS. SEE HOW BIG THEIR FRONT YARDS ARE. SO 17 IS, UH, 27 IS NOT WELL BUT I MEAN STILL THE MAJORITY OF THEIR FRONT, THEIR PROPERTY IS THE FRONT YARD. THEY'RE OFF NORTH RIVERVIEW STREET. SO WELL, AND THEIR, THEIR PROPOSAL, THE PROPOSAL ON THOSE TWO IS REALLY TO LEAVE THE FRONT AS THE GREEN SPACE AND TO BUILD THE ADDITIONS TO THE BLACKSMITH LANE SIDE BECAUSE, 'CAUSE I WOULD SAY GENERALLY MY CONS WHEN I LOOK AT THIS IS I THINK AS MIKE SAID, YOU KIND OF ENCOMPASS THE OLD HOUSE TRYING TO KEEP, TRYING TO KEEP THE FRONT TOWARD BRIDGE STREET, WHICH I, I SEE WHAT YOUR, WHAT THE RATIONALE IS. BUT I THINK FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE IS TRYING TO MAINTAIN THE HISTORIC, THE HISTORIC STRUCTURE INDEPENDENT FROM THE, UH, MORE INDEPENDENT FROM THE, THE NEW STRUCTURE IS IS WHAT THE CODE'S SAYING, YOU KNOW, FROM UH, 4.12 AND FROM THE OTHER PARTS OF THE CODE. IT'S REALLY SAYING, HEY, HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT WE KEEP THE INTEGRITY OF THE OLD STRUCTURE AND NEW STUFF STRUCTURE, WHICH CLEARLY WE WANNA PUT IN HERE SOMEHOW BLEND IN THIS, BUT DON'T DETRACT SO MUCH FROM THE OLD, FROM THE HISTORIC STRUCTURE. AND HERE I'M JUST IS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW YOU GOT TO THIS, HOW YOU GOT TO THAT SPOT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T OVERWHELM THE OLD THE HISTORIC STRUCTURE. YEAH. SO I THINK, OH, I'M SORRY, I JUST WANTED TO ADD SOMETHING. IF YOU THINK OF IT AS PEOPLE WHO ARE WALKING, YOU'RE NOT ON, IT WAS ON A SECOND AGO. UM, IF YOU THINK OF IT AS THE PEOPLE WHO WERE WALKING BY, THEY'RE NOT GONNA WALK BY EAST BRIDGE STREET AND LOOK FOR THIS HOUSE OR LOOK AT THIS HOUSE, WHICH IS THE REAL HISTORIC SIGHTLINE, RIGHT? THE WAY YOU'VE DESIGNED IT, THEY'RE GONNA LOOK FROM NORTH RIVERVIEW, UM, AND IT DOESN'T, YOU CAN'T SEE IT OR YOU CAN SEE A SLIVER AND YOUR GUESTS OPERATIONALLY YOU'VE MADE THE FRONT DOOR NORTH RIVERVIEW, RIGHT? BECAUSE ANYBODY WHO COMES TO VISIT YOU IS GONNA DRIVE AND PARK ON RIVERVIEW AND THEY'RE GONNA COME UP YOUR DRIVEWAY AND YOU, YOUR PLAN, YOUR PLAN RECOGNIZES THAT GUESTS ARE GONNA COME UP THAT DRIVEWAY OFF OF NORTH RIVERVIEW AND THEY'RE GONNA ENTER THERE. SO YOU'RE REALLY, EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE, YOU'RE SAYING, UM, WE'LL MAKE A WALK AND WE'LL KEEP THAT FRONT PORCH OPERATIONALLY, EVERYBODY'S GONNA COME UP THAT DRIVE, GET OUTTA THE CAR AND, AND GO IN THE HOUSE FROM THERE. I MEAN THERE'S, [01:05:01] THERE'S GOING, THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH YOU CAN DO WITH THAT. I MEAN THAT NATURALLY WILL BE THE DRIVEWAY. THERE'S NO OTHER PLACE TO PUT IT. YEAH. THAT, THAT'S WELL AND, AND THEN YOU'RE, YOU'RE KIND OF SUPPORTING THEN THAT, THAT NORTH RIVERVIEW SHOULD BE, SHOULD BE THE FRONT AND RIGHT. SO JUST, AND, AND WE'VE PROVIDED SOME FLEXIBILITY ON THE BACK. RIGHT. SO, AND, AND I THINK LEAVING THE FRONT DOOR FIXEDLY, IF YOU WILL, THAT IT'S, YOU KNOW, HAS THE WALK IS A NICE TOUCH. I'M NOT OPPOSED TO THAT. BUT AS GARY IS SAYING, YOU, THE REALISTIC APPROACH IS, IS THAT THE FRONT IS GOING TO BE RIVERVIEW AND YOU ARE NOT ACHIEVING ANY OF THE SUBORDINATION REQUIREMENTS IN OUR CODE BY DOING THIS BIG EXPANSION ON THE NORTH AND UM, EAST SIDE AGAIN, 'CAUSE OUR APPROACH WAS USING BRIDGE STREET AS, AS THE FRONTAGE, AS THE LEGAL FRONTAGE. AND SO WE SCALED EVERYTHING BACK FROM THAT FRONTAGE. THE ADDITION IS ON THE REAR. UM, YOU KNOW, THE, THE MAJOR ELEMENTS OF THIS HOUSE ARE, ARE THE L THE GABLE ROOF. SO WE, YOU KNOW, WE PROVIDE SEPARATION AND VISUAL, UM, ATTENTION TO THE HISTORIC, UH, WEST FACADE, UM, BY ALIGNING THE ADDITION IN ACCESS WITH IT. HOWEVER, IF YOU'RE ON BLACKSMITH OR BRIDGE STREET, YOU'RE SEEING THAT WHOLE, UH, HISTORIC FACADE. LIKEWISE FROM BRIDGE STREET, I ASSUME PEOPLE WALK ALONG BRIDGE STREET, THERE'S A, THERE'S A SET OF STAIRS ON BRIDGE STREET WHICH PEOPLE COULD WALK DOWN. I I ARGUE PEOPLE AREN'T GONNA BE WALKING DOWN A DEAD END STREET, UH, TO, TO GET SOMEWHERE. I, I, I STILL THINK HERE, HERE'S WHY YOU, YOU CAN USE BRIDGE STREET AS THE FRONT, BUT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TROUBLE, UM, GETTING SOMETHING LIKE THIS APPROVED, I THINK IS WHAT YOU'RE HEARING BECAUSE THE ADDITION'S NOT SUBORDINATE TO THE HOUSE IN THAT, IN THAT POSITION. THE, THE ADDITION AND, AND IF YOU LOOK AT 17 AND 27 NOW, DIFFERENT, DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES, BUT YOU KNOW, THEY'VE GONE OUTTA THE WAY TO KEEP EVERYTHING AS MUCH AS THEY CAN BEHIND THAT STRUCTURE. SO FROM THE DESIGNATED FRONT, NOW YOU'RE GONNA SEE, YOU MAY SEE SOME OF THE, THE ROOF LINE IN THE BACK ABOVE, BUT FROM THE DESIGNATED FRONT ON THOSE PROPERTIES, YOU KNOW, IT IT'S THAT HISTORIC STRUCTURE IS PRETTY MUCH INTACT. AND SO IF WE, IF WE SAID, OKAY, YOU WANT EACH, EACH BRIDGE STREET, THE FRONT, THEN YOU'VE GOTTA PUT PUSH YOUR ADDITION BACK BEHIND IT AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE LOT AREA TO DO THAT. AND, AND IF YOU LOOK AT EVERYTHING IN THE DISTRICT, UM, WITH, WITH VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS, YOU'RE GONNA SEE ADDITIONS OF ALL, AND OUR, OUR GUIDELINES EVEN STATE THAT THEY EVEN SHOW DIAGRAMS, YOU KNOW, ADDITIONS IN THE BACK. IF IT HAS TO KICK OUT, IT'S USUALLY BACK QUITE A WAYS BEFORE IT KICKS OUT BEYOND THE PERIMETER OF THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE. SO, AND, AND THAT, THAT'S WHAT MY FIRST COMMENT WAS ABOUT. IF YOU CAN MEET OUR DESIGN GUIDELINES, YOU KNOW, FOR ME IT DOESN'T CARE. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHICH ONE IS FRONT, BUT I DON'T THINK YOU CAN MEET OUR DESIGN GUIDELINES, AT LEAST THE WAY IT'S DESIGNED. NOW WITH THAT IS FRONT, DO YOU KNOW WHAT, UM, BRIDGE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GONNA DO SOME CONSTRUCTION AROUND THE BRIDGE. DO WE KNOW ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO THAT? BECAUSE THAT'S HOW MANY YEARS? NOT, NOT TOO FAR DOWN THE ROAD. WHAT'S THE IMPACT GONNA BE LIKE ON BRIDGE STREET? WE HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING MORE ON THAT PROJECT. ALTHOUGH WE'RE IN COMMUNICATION WITH ENGINEERING ABOUT THAT ON A PRETTY REGULAR BASIS. OUR UNDERSTANDING IS THAT IT IS ONLY THE BRIDGE ITSELF THAT IS GOING TO BE RECONSTRUCTED AND NOT ANTICIPATING ANY WIDENING OR LOWERING, SORRY, LOWER THE, ALRIGHT, ARE THEY GONNA LOWER THE STREET? IS IT GONNA STAY RIVERVIEW? SAME HEIGHT, IN OTHER WORDS, AS IT IS CONSTRUCTED NOW? OH YES. YEAH. FOR THE APPLICANTS. JUST, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE AWARE THE BRIDGE IS BEING REDESIGNED AND SO THAT'S WHY WELL YOU SHOULD, YOU, YOU SHOULD SEE WHAT THEY'RE DOING BECAUSE IT'S GONNA IMPACT YOUR PROPERTY. UM, WE ASKED THAT QUITE A FEW TIMES AND IT'S NEVER BEEN BROUGHT UP. SO I THINK THERE'S A DESIGN IT'S WAYS OUT. DO YOU KNOW HOW FAR OUT. IT IS. I DON'T, AND I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY PLANS. OKAY. ALRIGHT. WE'RE JUST SHARING THAT WE, WE KNOW IT'S GONNA HAPPEN. WE JUST, THAT WE JUST DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DETAILS OF WHAT'S GONNA GO THERE YET. SO I KIND OF FEEL LIKE, OBVIOUSLY YOU GUYS KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCE THAT THIS WAS CITY OWNED FOR QUITE SOME TIME, UM, IN DISREPAIR AND, YOU KNOW, WE'RE TRYING TO, I, I THOUGHT THAT STICKING WITH BRIDGE STREET AND THE ORIGINAL ADDRESS WAS THE MORE HISTORICAL APPROACH TO THIS, AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE STARTED FROM. UM, [01:10:02] YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THERE'S GONNA BE A LOT MORE VARIANCES AND SUCH IF WE JUST FLIP THE ORIENTATION. I THINK EVERYTHING YOU'RE SAYING MAKES A LOT OF SENSE IF, IF YOU JUST ASSUME THAT RIVERVIEW IS THE FRONT. UM, I THINK IN MY OPINION, THAT IGNORES HIS, THE HISTORICAL PART A LITTLE BIT. I MEAN, WE'VE LOOKED AT HISTORICAL PICTURES BEFORE THE BRIDGE WAS RAISED UP AND THIS QUOTE UNQUOTE, UM, HISTORICAL WALL THAT'S THE SIDE AND BACKYARD TO IT, WHICH FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOUR YARD HAS GOT THIS HISTORICAL WALL IN IT AND IT'S A DEEP GATHERING SPACE. UM, AND OBVIOUSLY THAT ALL GETS FLIPPED ON ITS HEAD IF YOU SAY, WELL, RIVERVIEW IS REALLY THE, THE FRONT OF THIS WELL, FUN. FUNDAMENTALLY, I THINK THE ONE I THINK JUST FOR ME, THE MASSING THAT ENCOMPASSES THE HOUSE FOR ME IS THE MAIN ISSUE, RIGHT? YOU'VE COVERED UP, YOU KNOW, HALF OF THE HALF OF THE HISTORIC HOUSE MORE OR LESS, RIGHT? AND EVEN FROM BRIDGE STREET, RIGHT? THE ADDITION TO THE, TO THE EAST IS NOT SET BACK ALL, ALL THAT FAR. AND THE ADDITIONS THAT WRAP AROUND DON'T DIFFERENTIATE THE HISTORIC HOUSE FROM THE NEW ADDITION. IT, IT REALLY IS, IT'S CONNECT. IT'S REALLY, IT'S FUNCTIONALLY CONNECTED TO THE, TO THE HISTORIC HOUSE. SO FROM A CODE AND A GUIDELINE STANDPOINT, FOR ME, THAT'S WHICHEVER SIDE YOU PICK, RIGHT? IT, IT DOESN'T EXACTLY FIT RIGHT. AND FOR ME, NOT ACTUALLY, I THINK IT KIND OF VIOLATES SEVERAL OF KIND OF THE PRINCIPLES THAT SIT INSIDE OF THAT. AND I THINK ON OUR SIDE, IF YOU TAKE SOME OF THE, LET'S SAY THE EAST SIDE OFF AND MOVED IT TO THE, WHAT, WHATEVER THAT WOULD BE, I THINK YOU CAN FIND A A A DIFFERENT WAY. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT IT FROM HERE, IT, IT VIOLATES JUST A LOT OF HOW THE, HOW THE HISTORIC GUIDELINE AND ALSO THE, THE CODE IS, IS WRITTEN TO HOW A NEW ADDITION SHOULD BE SUBORDINATE AND ADD CHARACTER TO THE HISTORIC HOME. AND, AND IF YOU TOOK MARTY'S POINT, ORIGINAL POINT, YOU COULD KEEP BRIDGE STREET THE FRONT MM-HMM. YOU. BUT IF YOU MOVED ALL THAT MASS THAT SEAN'S REFERRING TO, AND YOU TOOK ALL THAT MASS AND TUCKED IT AROUND AND SOMEHOW COMBINED IT WITH THE, WITH THE A DU, NOW YOU STILL HAVING A HYPHEN THERE IS IMPORTANT, BUT YOU COULD KEEP, YOU COULD KEEP THAT, YOU'RE GONNA NEED A VARIANCE BECAUSE THE, THE REAR IS NOT GONNA BE WHAT THE CODE SAYS THE REAR IS. SO YOU NEED A VARIANCE FOR THAT. BUT IF YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE INSISTENT ON DOING THAT, UM, YOU COULD DO THAT. YOU STILL, YOU, YOU HAVE TO, YOU PRETTY MUCH HAVE TO CHANGE THE DESIGN THE SAME WAY EITHER, EITHER ROUTE YOU TAKE. SO I MEAN, MOVING FORWARD WE NEED TO START THINKING OF RIVERVIEW AS THE VISUAL FRONT OF THE HOUSE. THAT'S WHAT I'M HEARING. THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO PUT IT. IT IT'S GONNA BE THE, I DON'T WANNA USE THE WORD FUNCTIONAL, BUT IT'S GONNA BE THE ACTUAL VISUAL PART. IT'S YOU'RE JUST BLOCKED BY THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE BRIDGE AND THE BRIDGE STREET. THEN WHAT DOES THAT ALLOW KEEPING THE STRUCTURE, KEEPING THE STRUCTURE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE PRIMARY FOCUS, WHAT DOES THAT ALLOW COMING TOWARDS RIVERVIEW? I DON'T THINK ANYTHING, SAY THAT ONE MORE TIME COMING. YOU SAY IF YOU TRY, SAY IF YOU PUT AN, YOU PUT AN EXTENSION ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE HOUSE, THAT'S IF WE, I MEAN, SQUARE FOOTAGE WISE, IF WE NEED TO GAIN ANYTHING, CAN WE PUT ANYTHING THAT'S GONNA COME TOWARDS RIVERVIEW WHEN THAT'S, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PICTURE, I DON'T KNOW IF THE PICTURE CAN BE UP, BUT IT, IT'S VERY CLEARLY THE SIDE OF A HOUSE. SO IT'S LIKE, ARE WE JUST PICKING WHERE THE FRONT DOOR GOES? ARE WE ABLE TO COME FORWARD ANY WITH A PATIO OR ANYTHING THERE OR WITH THE, WHAT, WHAT I COULD SUPPORT IS, BECAUSE I DO THINK THAT THAT FACE, THE TWO PORCHES ARE THERE A DIFFERENT STORY, BUT THE FACE OF THAT IS A SIDE, THE FACE OF IT. BUT, SO I THINK YOU COULD PUT A SNOT, A PORCH THAT GOES ACROSS THE WHOLE FRONT, BUT A VERY SMALL PORCH THAT MIGHT MARK THE FRONT ENTRY ALONG THAT AND CREATE SOME HIERARCHY ALONG THAT ELEVATION. BUT IT HAS TO BE SMALL ENOUGH THAT THE WHOLE VOLUME, NOW THAT'S JUST ME. THERE ARE OTHER BOARD MEMBERS WHO MAY FEEL DIFFERENTLY, BUT I DO THINK THAT ELEVATION DOES NEED SOMETHING THAT SAYS FRONT. AND IF IT'S MINOR AND SMALL ENOUGH, I DON'T THINK IT'S NECESSARILY GONNA DETRACT FROM THE REST OF THE VOLUME OR OVERWHELM IT. THIS, THIS OVER. I, I, I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DID IT, BUT IT'S JUST AS EVERYBODY SAYS, IT'S JUST OVERWHELMING. UM, THAT PART OF THE HOUSE. I, I AGREE. IF WE DECIDE THAT RIVERVIEW IS THE VISUAL FRONT, I I, I WOULD SAY IF YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT FROM, YOU KNOW, THE TOP OF THIS PICTURE, I, I WOULD DISAGREE, BUT I, YOU KNOW, IT KIND OF FLIPS THE WHOLE PLAN ON ITS HEAD AND THE VARIANCES, UH, OBVIOUSLY OPEN UP QUITE A BIT. I JUST WONDER HOW MUCH LEEWAY THERE WILL BE IN THE FUTURE FOR HOW UNIQUE OF A SITUATION THIS IS WITH A STONE WALL THAT WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITH, WITH A BRIDGE PROJECT THAT WE DON'T EVEN, YOU KNOW, LIKE, IT'S LIKE, ARE WE GONNA START A PROJECT AND THEN THREE MONTHS IN [01:15:01] THE BRIDGE PROJECT'S GONNA BE RIPPING INTO THE SIDE YARD? I I, I KIND OF FEEL LOST AS TO WHERE TO GO FROM HERE. AND IT'S, IT'S CLEARLY EXISTING. THE, THE EAST SIDE IS CLEARLY A SIDE ELEVATION. IT JUST WENT OUT. THE EAST SIDE IS CLEARLY A SIDE ELEVATION, UH, YOU KNOW, NO ATTENTION TO HIERARCHY WHATSOEVER. SO HERE, YOU KNOW, BUT HERE AGAIN, YOU'RE, YOU'RE, YOU'RE FOCUSING, I THINK YOU'RE GETTING CAUGHT UP IN THE, THE PRIMARY ISSUE IS THE WAY THIS ADDITION ENGULFS THE HOUSE. OKAY. SO THAT I THINK IS WHAT, SO FOR ME, I'M THE SAME. SO FOR ME, IF YOU, I'M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD HAVE IT ON RIVERVIEW OR BRIDGE STREET, I ACTUALLY, I, I LET YOU KIND OF FIND YOUR WAY. WHAT MY CONCERN IS, YOU PUT AN ADDITION ON THE EAST SIDE THAT COMPLETELY ENGULFS THE HOUSE THAT ACTUALLY IS NOT VERY SUBORDINATE TO THE FRONT. I DON'T KNOW HOW WIDE THE PORCH IS, BUT IT, IT, UH, I WOULD SAY IS NOT SUBORDINATE IN THE WHOLE MASS STICKING OUT THERE IS NOT SUBORDINATE EVEN FROM THE, EVEN FROM THE FRONT SIDE. NOT TO MENTION THAT YOU'VE REALLY COVERED UP THE NORTH SIDE ALSO ON THE, ON THE, ON THE HISTORIC STRUCTURE AND JUST, AND THEN AS YOU LOOK AT THE ROOF MASSING, IT, IT INTERACTS WITH EVERYTHING THAT SITS THERE. SO EITHER SIDE FROM, I'M NOT, I ACTUALLY MEAN FOR ME, I'M, YOU COULD PICK KIND OF EITHER SIDE, BUT YOU STILL GOTTA FIND A WAY TO PUT THE NEW STRUCTURES GOTTA BE SUBORDINATE. THE MASSING HAS TO FIT WITH WHAT THE EXISTING STRUCTURE IS. AND FOR ME IT'S NOT FRONT OR BACK, IT'S KIND OF JUST HOW THAT WHOLE WHOLE THING ENGULFS THE SIDE AND THE BACK. AND THEN IF YOU START TO LOOK AT THE ROOF MASSING AND, AND THE, AND THE ROOF PITCHES IT, IT REALLY JUST OVERWHELMS THE EXISTING HOUSE. THE THAT'S, THAT'S FOR ME IS MORE, IT'S MORE SITTING IN THERE THAN IT REALLY IS SITTING INSIDE, WHETHER IT'S ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER. YEAH. AND TO BUILD ON WHAT SEAN IS SAYING, THE THE CODE GUIDELINES, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S RECOMMENDED OR REQUIRE HYPHENS AND YOU HAVE ONE BETWEEN OLD AND NEW AND THAT WRAPAROUND SECTION IS NOT SEPARATED BY A HYPHEN. LIKEWISE, IT'S NOT, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE SUBORDINATE. MEANING IF WE LOOK AT THE OLD STRUCTURE, WE SHOULD SEE VERY LITTLE OF THE NEW STRUCTURE. IT SHOULD BE BEHIND AND LOWER DOWN. AND WITHIN THE GUIDELINES, WE'RE WILLING AND WE HAVE APPROVED VARIANCES FROM THIS, BUT HERE, THIS IS CERTAINLY FROM THE RIVERVIEW STREET SIDE, THE NEW STRUCTURE IS THE PREDOMINANT SIGHT LINE FROM THE BRIDGE STREET SIDE. WE STILL SEE, I WOULD SAY THE BACK PART OF IT IS WHAT, TWO THIRDS OF THE SIZE OF THE MAJOR STRUCTURE. THAT'S NOT, THAT'S SIGNIFICANT. AND THEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT'S PRETTY CLOSE TO THE FRONT, WHICH MEANS IT'S NOT GONNA LOOK MINOR, IT'S NOT GONNA LOOK OUT BUILDING ISH, WHICH IS KIND OF WHERE WE'RE SORT OF HEADED. SO NOT WRAP AROUND AND IF IT'S ATTACHED, IT'S GOTTA BE LITTLER. THERE'S, I THINK TO LOOK AT THIS ANOTHER WAY AND, AND SARAH IN THE STAFF REPORT, YOU HAVE THE, YOU HAVE THE PHRASE PRESERVE THE HISTORIC NATURE AND MASS OF NORTH RIVERVIEW STREET. AND THAT WAS TAKEN FROM WHAT THE CITY'S DOCUMENTS THAT THEY ASSEMBLED PRIOR TO SELLING THESE PARCELS. SO PRESERVE THE HISTORIC NATURE AND MASS OF NORTH RIVERVIEW STREET. SO THAT'S BEEN A GOAL ALL ALONG IS TO BE ABLE TO SEE THESE HOMES AT, IN THEIR ORIGINAL CONTEXT. AND IT'S HARD TO DO THAT HERE. UM, WITH, WITH THAT ADDITION ON THAT NORTH RIVER VIEW STREET SIDE. YEAH. AND I MEAN CLEARLY STATES IN THERE TOO. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE THE ADDRESS IS, IF IT'S FACING BRIDGE STREET, IT'S HOW THEY WROTE THAT OUT WITH THE, THEY WANTED THAT NORTH RIVER VIEW VIEW BECAUSE IT'S GONNA BE A BUSY, BUSY ROAD AT SOME POINT IN TIME. THAT'S GONNA BE A LOT OF TRAFFIC COMING DOWN THROUGH THERE. SO IF IT'S PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC OR HOWEVER THEY DETERMINED TO DO THAT. BUT I THINK THAT WAS THE IDEA OF LIKE THAT, THAT'S KIND OF WHERE THE VIEW'S GONNA BE IS FROM NORTH RIVER VIEW AS PEOPLE WALK AND WALK DOWN NORTH RIVERVIEW STREET. SO BEFORE WE GO THROUGH THE POINTS, 'CAUSE WE HAVEN'T NECESSARILY COVERED THEM ALL, I DID WANT TO SEE, WE, WE DIDN'T OPEN IT UP TO SEE IF THERE WAS PUBLIC COMMENT. HAS THERE BEEN ANYTHING THERE ISN'T. OKAY. ALRIGHT. SO IF I LOOK AT THE, AND WE'RE GONNA KEEP TALKING HERE, BUT I WANNA MAKE SURE WE COVER THE FIVE BULLET POINTS. SO, AND, AND BOARD MEMBERS PLEASE. GARY, CAN I JUST PLEASE, I HAVE TO TAKE A, A BRIEF BREAK RIGHT NOW FOR MEDICAL REASONS. UM, I'LL KEEP MY EAR ON WHAT'S GOING ON, BUT I'M GONNA LEAVE THE ROOM. DO YOU TO TAKE, DO YOU WANNA TAKE A FIVE? IT'S OKAY IF WE TAKE A FIVE MINUTE BREAK. WHAT? IT'S OKAY FOR YOU, FOR EVERYBODY TO A BREAK? YEAH, SO YOU GO LISTEN. OH, OKAY. THANK YOU. IS THAT OKAY? YEAH, THANK YOU. YES. [01:20:01] OKAY. HUH? YOU GO. OKAY. ALRIGHT. TO USE THE RESTROOM, I'LL MAKE SURE THAT'S NOT MY SON. UM, I'M UNSURE. OKAY. I JUST MAY BE BEEPING A LOT. OKAY. OKAY. UM, BE SARAH WANTED ME TO LET YOU KNOW, JUST REMIND YOU, YOU MAY BE AWARE OF THIS, YOU CAN COME BACK FOR AS MANY INFORMAL REVIEWS AS YOU WANT. SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME SUGGESTIONS COMING OUT OF THIS THERE. YOU MAY END UP DOING SOME REDESIGN WORK, BUT YOU CAN COME BACK AND TEST THINGS. IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S JUST ONCE AND WE SAY YAY OR NAY SO YOU, YOU CAN COME BACK AGAIN. SO DON'T, DON'T FEEL LIKE IT'S NECESSARILY A CLOSED PROCESS HERE. JUST CURIOUS, WOULD DAVE LIVES IN TRAVERSE CITY? HE'S A COLLEGE FRIEND OF MINE. UM, I'M ASSUMING I COULD JUST REPRESENT MYSELF AT A LOT OF THESE. OKAY. YEAH. YEAH, AS LONG AS, AND THERE'S A, THERE'S A, WELL HE CAN WATCH, HE CAN LISTEN IN AND WATCH AND THERE'S, THERE'S, THESE ARE LIVE STREAMS. THERE'S AN LIVE STREAM AND THERE'S A TRANSCRIPT, AN AMAZING TRANSCRIPT AT THE END OF THESE MEETINGS TOO. SO , THERE ARE PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR HIM TO BE INFORMED ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON AND NOT, NOT NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE HERE. UM, OKAY. SO, UM, YEAH, YOU ASKED THE QUESTION AND THEN WE'LL GET BACK IN THESE FIVE POINTS ABOUT THE BRIDGE AND WOULD IT BE EVER BE WIDENED AND I, I I THINK THEY'D HAVE HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH YOU. IT'D BE SUPER DIFFICULT. I MEAN, TO WIDEN THE ROAD IN HE IS REALLY, I MEAN JUST FROM THE LAYOUT OF THE CITY, IT'D BE DIFFICULT, BUT THE CITY OWNS THE RIGHT OF WAY OR THE STATE OWNS THE RIGHT OF WAY ON THAT SIDE, RIGHT? THAT'S RIGHT. YEP. I HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT WIDENING IT. THAT WOULD BE ENORMOUSLY EXPENSIVE. YES. OKAY. OKAY. SO LET'S, LET'S REVIEW THE, THE FIVE POINTS AND WE'LL PROBABLY TALK ABOUT A FEW OTHER THINGS TOO. SO MY SENSE IS WE'RE THE FIRST QUESTION, DO WE SUPPORT THE ORIENTATION OF THE BUILDING? AND I, I, MY SENSE IS WE'RE ALL QUALIFYING THAT SAYING IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT THE DESIGN LOOKS LIKE AND IF THE DESIGN MEETS THE GUIDELINES OF BEING SUBORDINATE TO THIS STRUCTURE, THEN AND, AND ALSO MAINTAINS THE CITY'S GOAL OF PRESERVING THE HISTORIC NATURE AND MASS OF NORTH RIVERVIEW. YOU, YOU CAN TELL US WHICH, WHICH YOU WANT IS THE FRONT, BUT EITHER WAY IS GONNA TRIGGER SOME VARIANCES. SO, UM, I DON'T THINK YOU'RE NECESSARILY, UM, ELIMINATE A VARIANCE BY, UM, BY THE APPROACH YOU'RE TAKING. SAY I'M AGNOSTIC. IF YOU, IF YOU FIND THE BEST WAY TO DO IT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND YOU CAN FIND IT TO FIT, I'M HAPPY. IS THAT AN ACCURATE CHARACTERIZATION? YES, I AGREE AND I'M HAPPY TO SUPPORT THAT. YEP, TOTALLY AGREE. IT'S ALL, IT'S THAT WHOLE SUBORDINATE ISSUE. CAN WE SEE? YEAH, EXACTLY. IT'S NOT WHICH SIDE IS THE FRONT. OKAY. OKAY. UM, DO WE SUPPORT THE LOT? WE HAVEN'T TALKED MUCH ABOUT, THERE ARE TWO ISSUES, THE LOT COVERAGE AND THE A DU AND WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT THE LOT COVERAGE NUMBERS, IT LOOKS LIKE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOUR LOT COVERAGE AND YOUR FOOTPRINT AND YOU DON'T NEED ANY VARIANCE FOR YOUR FOOTPRINT OR ANY, UM, WAIVER IS ABOUT 3000 SQUARE FEET. UM, WHEN I LOOKED AT THE DIFFERENCE, AND THAT'S, THAT'S A LOT OF PAVEMENT THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AND IT SEEMED TO ME LOOKING AT THAT, THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO MAKE THE WHOLE DRIVEWAY 14 FEET WIDE. I MEAN YOU, YOU COULD REDUCE THE DRIVEWAY THE MOST OF THAT TO 10 FEET AND THEN WHEN YOU COME BACK TO, AND, AND SO IF YOU TOOK 14 F FOUR FEET OUT OF THAT FOR QUITE A BIT OF LENGTH AND THEN WHEN YOU COME BACK TO THE UM, GARAGE, YOU, IT CAN GET WIDER AND YOU CAN CREATE, YOU KNOW, SPACE TO TURN AND MANEUVER. BUT I THINK YOU COULD GET THAT NUMBER DOWN, UM, JUST BY NARROWING YOU, YOU HAVE A HARDSHIP BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE GARAGE BACK THERE AND SO YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A MORE PAVEMENT BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO ACCESS THAT. SO I, I THINK THERE'S A, PERSONALLY, I THINK THERE'S A NATURAL HARDSHIP THERE, WHETHER THE WAIVER IS FOR THAT MUCH COVERAGE, I'M NOT SURE. 'CAUSE I THINK THE DRIVE IS REALLY BIG WIDE, BUT UH, THAT'S JUST MY FEELING. HOW, HOW DO OTHER BOARD MEMBERS FEEL ABOUT THAT? I'M JUST, I MEAN IF I LOOK AT THAT, I MEAN I THINK THERE MIGHT BE WAYS TO, TO BE INSIDE THE CODE. OKAY. WE'D HAVE TO FIND HOW YOU END UP AT THE ENEMY, GARY. AND WHERE THE COVERAGE COULD COME FROM. AS YOU SAY THERE, JUST THE WAY YOU HAVE [01:25:01] TO ORIENT THE BUILDING, THERE'S GONNA BE A POTENTIAL HARDSHIP I'D LIKE TO SEE, TRY TO GET THAT OUT OF THERE. BUT THERE, I MEAN IF YOU CAME BACK AND SAID, HEY, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY I CAN GET IT TO FIT TO BE SUBORDINATE AND DO THESE THINGS, I WOULD BE MORE APT TO GIVE A WAIVER ON HERE THAN TO COMPROMISE ON THE MASSING AND THE SUBORDINATION OF THAT. IF IT CAME OUT AND YOU SAID, HEY, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY I CAN GET IT TO WORK, IT LOOKS NICE AND I NEED THE DRIVEWAY NEEDS TO BE X AND IT CAUSES ME HERE MAY AS AN EXAMPLE, I COULD BE OKAY WITH THAT. BUT I'D LIKE YOU TO TRY TO SQUEEZE IT INTO THE CODE. AND I THINK WHAT US JUST BEING IN THE DISCUSSION STAGE TWO, I THINK I'D RATHER SEE THAT EFFORT OF TRYING TO GET THERE FIRST. YEAH. VERSUS UH, AND THEN IF IT BECOMES TRULY LIKE WE'RE SAYING A HARDSHIP, THERE'S JUST NO OTHER WAY, BUT WE DID EVERYTHING ELSE THAT YOU ASKED, THEN, YOU KNOW, THEN WE'D BE RECEPTIVE TO THAT. SO IT WAS CAUSED AND I, I'M CONFIDENT WE CAN WORK WITH THAT POINT, UM, AND GET IT WITHIN THE PRESCRIBED REQUIREMENTS. HOW DO WE, HOW DO WE FEEL ABOUT THE A DU WAIVER? I HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT TOO. WE'LL WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE USE IS AND WHAT THAT'S GOING TO BE. UM, OBVIOUSLY WHAT THAT FLOOR PLAN'S GONNA LOOK LIKE. I THINK THAT WAS A KEY POINT YOU BROUGHT UP TOO. WHAT'S IT REALLY GONNA LOOK LIKE THAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR BESIDES JUST THE GENERAL NUMBER? I MEAN OBVIOUSLY WE KNOW EIGHT HUNDRED'S THE CODE, THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE NEED TO BE. I THINK WE'RE AT NINE, WHAT WAS IT? NINE? I DON'T HAVE MY NUMBER RIGHT. NINE 60. 9 69 60. SO YOU KNOW, THERE'S 160 THERE. SO I THINK LOOKING AT THE FLOOR PLAN, BUT ALSO I THINK WE'RE GIVING YOU A LOT OF OTHER OPPORTUNITIES OF THE FIRST DISCUSSION IN THAT FIRST TOPIC THAT THERE MAY BE, UH, OPPORTUNITIES THERE THAT MAY NOT END UP BEING AN A DU. SO, BUT RIGHT NOW I WOULDN'T SUPPORT THE WAIVER AS IT'S WHAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR NOW UNTIL I HAD MORE INFORMATION OF KNOWING WHAT'S GONNA GO THERE AND THEN ALSO HOW, HOW THAT ALL CAN BE REWORKED. OKAY. SO YEAH, I I, TO ME THE BIGGER ISSUE IS THE OVERALL BUILDING COVERAGE AND IF IT'S IN THE BUILDING COVERAGE THEN I, I'M NOT, I'M NOT SO CONCERNED WITH THAT ONE. I'M LESS CONCERNED WITH A DU THAN I AM OTHER THINGS. SO ON THE HIERARCHY OF THINGS THAT, THAT CAME OUT TO BE A LITTLE BIT HIGH, I'M, I'M, AND IT FITS WHERE YOU HAVE IT FIT AND WE KNEW THE USE IS A LITTLE BIGGER. I THAT, THAT'S A LITTLE LOWER ON THE, ON THE, ON MY LIST OF CONCERNS. YEAH. SO I THINK YOU'RE HEARING THERE'S SOME FLEXIBILITY ON BOARD ON THAT ONE. OKAY. CERTAINLY WE'D WANNA KNOW THE USE. RIGHT. I MEAN I THINK THERE IS SOME CODE, THERE'S SOME LANGUAGE IN THERE ABOUT THE ACTUAL WHAT YOU CAN USE IT FOR AND, AND SO THAT WOULD BE AN IMPORTANT AND SEEING THE FLOOR PLANS YEAH, WOULD DEFINITELY, WOULD DEFINITELY HELP. THE UM, NUMBER THREE, WE'VE MADE A LOT OF COMMENTS ABOUT THE MASS SCALE AND FORMS THE ADDITION IN THEIR RESPONSE TO THE CODING GUIDELINES. SO LET'S TAKE THE FIRST QUESTION BEFORE. SO I THINK MOST OF US ARE SAYING THE MASS OF THIS WRAPPING AROUND AND HIDING THE ORIGINAL HOUSE IS SOMETHING WE ALL HAVE AN ISSUE WITH. IS THAT, IS THAT ACCURATE? MM-HMM. , YES. OKAY. SO THAT, THAT'S THE FIRST ISSUE. UM, IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT THE MASS WILL BE WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU REDESIGN IT. UM, SO I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT'S REDESIGNED 'CAUSE YOUR AD THAT THAT STRUCTURE THAT NOW LOOKS LIKE ALMOST AN INDEPENDENT A DU MAY END UP GETTING BIGGER. SO I THINK WE'LL JUST KIND OF HAVE TO WAIT ON THAT UNTIL WE SEE THE, THE NEXT, THE NEXT ITERATION. I DID HAVE A QUESTION WHEN YOU, BEFORE WE EVEN CAME UP HERE, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT WHY IS THIS NOT JUST A BIG ADDITION INSTEAD OF AN A DU AND ESPECIALLY IF WE'RE GONNA USE UP MORE OF THAT WOULD BE SOUTHWEST CORNER WHERE THE, WHERE THE WALLS ARE. UM, DOES THAT CHANGE EVERYTHING OR? WELL, I, I'M, THAT'S WHY I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT THE DEF DEFINITION OF A DU IT, DIFFERENT AREAS BECAUSE THESE ARE RELATIVELY NEW. DEFINE 'EM DIFFERENT WAYS. SO I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S KITCHEN, BATHROOM, COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT LIVING AND, AND SO WHAT THAT, AND I THINK IT'S, IT'D BE BETTER IF THAT WAS CLEARLY DEFINED FOR ALL OF US BEFORE WE, UM, COULD MAKE A JUDGMENT ON THAT. WELL, AND SARAH MENTIONED THAT IT WAS A CHOICE BY THE APPLICANT THAT YOU AFFIRMATIVELY CHOSE TO CLASSIFY IT AS AN A DU. UM, SO MAYBE LOOK INTO THAT AND FIGURE OUT IF YOU DID IT INTENTIONALLY OR WHETHER IT NEEDS, IT WOULD BEHOOVE YOU TO CHANGE IT TO SOMETHING ELSE. AND, AND WE'VE HAD PEOPLE CALL LIKE SECOND PRIMARY SUITE . [01:30:01] I MEAN YEAH. 'CAUSE YOU MAY BE JUST OPENING UP A CAN OF WORMS THAT WE DON'T, IT, IT'S NOT AN INDEPENDENT STRUCTURE HERE, SO, WELL IS IT ALSO KIND OF DEFINED ON THE, UH, OCCUPANCY OF HOW THAT'S GONNA BE UTILIZED OR THERE ARE SOME OCCUPANCY LIMITATIONS IN THE HISTORIC CODE AND IN THE CITY'S OVERALL CODE? I BELIEVE THAT THERE MAY BE SOME BUILDING CODE ISSUES, BUT I DON'T WANNA SPEAK TO THAT, NOT BEING AN EXPERT IN THAT. UM, SOMETHING ABOUT MULTIPLE THERE IS, IT'S VERY CLEAR IN THE HISTORIC CODE THAT IT CAN EITHER BE AN ACCESSORY STRUCTURE OR A PART OF THE MAIN BUILDING. SO IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SEPARATE, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SEPARATED BY A HYPHEN. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ENFOLDED INTO THE PRIMARY STRUCTURE. BUT IT CERTAINLY COULD BE IF IT WERE CLASSIFIED IT AS AS AN A DU, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? OR AS AN THAT THERE, THERE ARE NOT THOSE REQUIREMENTS. IT COULD BE IN MANY DIFFERENT FORMS. IT IS A WHAT? A DU. OKAY. RIGHT. YES. SO IF THE APPLICANT DESIGNATES IT AS AN A DU, THEN OBVIOUSLY THE OTHER REQUIREMENTS CLICK IN. BUT IF THEY CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE, AN ADDITION, A SECOND PRIMARY BEDROOM, THEN IT'S GOES TO WHATEVER WE'RE USUALLY USING. IT'S JUST THE ARRANGEMENT OF THE HOUSE. YEAH. SO YEAH, LOOK INTO WHETHER YOU HAVE TO CLASSIFY IT AS A DU AND WHETHER MAYBE IT IS A ADVANTAGEOUS TO CLASSIFY IT AS AN A DU, BUT IT MAY NOT BE FIGURE OUT WHAT'S THE BEST A, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE MOST ADVANTAGEOUS TO YOU? I, I THINK THERE'S AN IMP OH, SHANDA, DO YOU WANNA SAY SOMETHING? NO, NO. I THINK THERE'S AN IMPORTANT PART OF, BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO THE SECOND QUESTION IN THREE IS THERE ARE A LOT OF ROOF FORMS AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT MASSES HERE. AND I'VE, I'VE HEARD MOST OF YOU MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT BUSY TOO MANY ROOF FORMS. IS THAT ACCURATE? YES. AND I THINK I WAS THE ONE WHO DIDN'T COMMENT ON THAT, BUT I WOULD GO ALONG WITH THAT. IT'S, IT'S VERY COMPLICATED AND I'D SAY GENERALLY DOESN'T NEED TO BE. YEAH, WE'VE TRIED TO GET PEOPLE TO MINIMIZE THE ROOF, THE ROOF LINES THAT ARE INTERACTING IN A SINGLE PLANE AND ALSO THE MATERIALS. WE'RE TRYING TO GET IT TO SOMETHING LESS THAN WHAT YOU HAVE. 'CAUSE YOU HAVE REALLY BOARD AND BATTEN YOU HAVE SIDING, YOU HAVE SOME, SOME SHINGLES I THINK. AND THE ROOFS ARE, THE ORIGINAL HOUSE ITSELF HAS MULTIPLE SURFACES TOO, SO THEY'RE DEALING WITH THAT. BUT YEAH. YEAH. BUT IF YOU CAN INTEGRATE THOSE, 'CAUSE THEN THEY'RE NEW. THEY'RE NEW. AND THEN THE ROOFS WERE ALSO, I THINK THERE'S THREE DIFFERENT ROOF TYPES. SO JUST TRYING TO HARMONIZE HOW THEY, THE ROOF LINES FLOW TOGETHER ALONG WITH THE MATERIALS AND TRY TO CUT 'EM. I THINK WE SPENT SOME TIME IN THE PAST TRYING TO MAKE SURE WE KIND OF HARMONIZE THEM A LITTLE BETTER AND, AND KEEP THEM AND GENERALLY THE TO THREE OR 4, 2, 3, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YEAH. AND I THINK THAT OTHER QUESTION AND THAT FOLLOWING THAT, I THINK SOME OF THAT MAY FALL IN LINE WITH NOT NEEDING SOME WAIVERS. IF THE ROOF LINES WERE DONE APPROPRIATELY. I THINK, UM, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD KIND OF, TYPICALLY I WOULDN'T SEE A SITUATION WHERE WE'D HAVE TO BE TALKING ABOUT WAIVERS IN THIS CASE. SO IF WE GOT THE ROOF LINES CONSISTENT AND, AND I JUST WANTED TO REINFORCE SOMETHING THAT'S IN THE STAFF REPORT, UM, THAT'S REALLY FROWNED UPON IN HISTORIC DISTRICTS IS MAIN EXTENDING THE ROOF LINE OF AN ORIGINAL STRUCTURE. UM, AND SO THAT'S SOME, BECAUSE THEN THERE THERE'S NO VOLUMETRIC DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE AND THE ADDITION. SO ON THAT NORTH SIDE, I THINK THE GABLE, THE GABLE EXTENDS OUT AND I THINK THAT'S FROM THE ORIGINAL, YEAH, FROM, FROM THE ORIGINAL. AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU, YOU REALLY WANT TO WANNA AVOID. OKAY. MIKE TOUCHED A LITTLE BIT ON THE, THE ROOF PITCH WAIVERS. I GUESS WE'LL WAIT AND SEE. WE WOULD PREFER TO HAVE THE ROOF PITCHES BE STEEP ENOUGH. THEY FALL WITHIN THE CODE. THERE HAVE BEEN CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE MAYBE SOME TYPE OF DORMER OR SOMETHING WE HAVE, BUT IT'S NOT FOR LARGE SURFACES OR LARGE AREAS. UM, SEAN MADE A COMMENT ABOUT THE NUMBER OF PROPOSED MATERIALS AND I, AND I, AND HILLARY'S SHAKING HER HEAD. I AGREE. OKAY. AND, AND MARTY IS AS WELL. SO TRY TO DIFFERENTIATE. I I THINK THE, THE CASE FOR THE, UM, THE ONE CIVIC BUILDING IN THE COMMUNITY THAT WAS DISCUSSED EARLIER TODAY, WHERE THERE WERE JUST TWO, THERE WERE TWO MATERIALS. THERE WAS A MATERIAL ON THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE AND THEN A MATERIAL ON THE ADDITION OR THE NON-ORIGINAL STRUCTURE. IT WAS AN [01:35:01] ADDITION YEARS AGO. SO FEWER MATERIALS THE BETTER, BUT YOU STILL WANT TO DIFFERENTIATE THE NEW FROM THE OLD. AND I THINK THAT ALSO IN THIS CASE TOO, YOU'VE GOT LIKE THREE DIFFERENT TYPES OF ROOFING MATERIALS AS WELL. UM, SOME CONSISTENCY THERE WOULD BE ANY OTHER CONSIDERATIONS I THINK. AND I THINK, I THINK DURING THE STAFFING REPORT THERE WAS A MENTION ABOUT HOW THE WINDOWS SYMMETRY OF THE WINDOWS THAT, UH, THAT HAVE SOME AND SINGLE LINE AND, AND DOUBLE HUNG AND A FEW OTHER THINGS AND THE PROPORTIONS OF THE WINDOWS AND THE PROPORTION OF HOW THEY FIT ON THE STRUCTURE. YEAH, BECAUSE IN IN TRADITIONAL ARCHITECTURE, YOU TEND TO HAVE PRIMARILY VERTICAL OPENINGS AND NOT SQUARE OR HORIZONTAL. UM, SOMETIMES YOU MIGHT SEE A SMALL SQUARE AS AN ACCENT OR SOMETHING, BUT UH, FOR THE MOST PART THEY'RE VERTICAL. SO THE PROPORTION OF THOSE, THOSE OPENINGS, SO WE'RE NOT SAYING YOU CAN'T NECESSARILY GROUP OPENINGS TOGETHER, BUT, UM, THE SHAPE'S IMPORTANT AND THE GUIDE, THE GUIDELINES SPELL ALL THIS OUT. SO YOU SHOULD KIND OF USE THE GUIDELINES IS YOU'RE A WORKBOOK AND JUST LOOK AT OPENINGS AND LOOK AT LOOK AT DOORS AND LOOK AT MATERIALS. UM, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE FOR US? I THINK THEY'RE MORE BETWEEN US, I GUESS. UH, WHEN I'M THINKING, TRYING TO PICTURE MORE OF THE HOUSE BECOMING THAT BACK, WELL SOUTHWEST CORNER TOWARDS THE HIGH STREET INTERSECTION, UM, IT'S A BUSY ROAD RIGHT THERE, OBVIOUSLY. AND IF YOU'VE GOT A BEDROOM THAT'S EIGHT FEET FROM PEOPLE HONKING HORNS AND QUE SQUEALING BREAKS AND STUFF, UM, I FEEL LIKE THAT KIND OF LIMITS IT TOO. SO I THINK WE JUST GOT A LOT TO THINK ABOUT. YEAH, THERE, THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN DO TO SOUNDPROOF WALLS THAT AREN'T ALWAYS DONE IN RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION THAT YOU, WHETHER IT'S IN ALONG THAT WALL, DOUBLE WALL CONSTRUCTION, YOU MIGHT HAVE TRIPLE PLANE, UH, TRIPLE PAIN GLAZING ON THAT WALL. SO THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN DO TO MITIGATE SOME OF THAT , I GUESS MOVING FORWARD. UM, IT SEEMS LIKE TO ACHIEVE, YOU KNOW, IN THE SQUARE FOOTAGE WE'RE LOOKING FOR, UM, THE PROGRAMMATIC, UH, DESIRES. IF WE BRING IT BACK TO, IF WE BRING THE ADDITIONS COMPLETELY, YOU KNOW, BEHIND THE, UM, THE EAST ELEVATION OF THE EXISTING HOME TOWARDS, UH, BLACKSTONE, SO LONG AS WE'RE WITHIN THOSE BOOKENDS, IT'S, IT SOUNDS LIKE MASSING AND, UH, OTHERWISE ATTACHING TO THE EXISTING SIDE OF THE HOME IS, UH, NOT AS MUCH OF AN ISSUE. I, WELL FOR ME, YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE THAT. I MEAN THERE IS, AS YOU SAY, SUBORDINATE, THERE'S GOTTA BE SOME SORT OF BREAK, I WOULD SAY AT SOME POINT TO MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE CAN DIFFERENTIATE THAT, THAT THE HISTORIC FROM THE, FROM THE NEW, RIGHT? SO IF YOU FLIPPED IT OVER AND WRAPPED IT AROUND THE OTHER SIDE, FOR ME THAT WOULD, THAT THAT WOULDN'T, THAT WOULDN'T SOLVE THE, THAT WOULDN'T NECESSARILY SOLVE THE ISSUE, RIGHT? SO YOU GOTTA FIND A WAY WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE THE HISTORIC BUILDING THAT SOMEHOW HAS A, A SUBORDINATE, UM, STRUCTURE THAT IF YOU PICK THE RIVERVIEW AS THE FRONT OR WHICHEVER WAY YOU PICK IT TO MAKE SURE IT'S THAT YOU STILL UNDERSTAND THAT THE HISTORIC BUILDING IS, IS STILL THERE. I YOU COULD GO BACK TO THAT PICTURE OF WHERE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT. PERHAPS YOU WOULD HYPHEN THE, AND THEN EXPAND ON THE WHAT IS NOW DESIGNATED THE A DU, BUT YOU WOULD BASICALLY HYPHEN FROM THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE BACK AND THEN IN AND EXPAND THIS A DU AREA TO INCLUDE TO THE SOUTH YES. AND TO THE SOUTH. AND TO THE SOUTH AND TO, YEAH, EVEN A LITTLE, WELL IT'S IN LINE I SEE HERE NOW WITH THE EXISTING STRUCTURE ON THE NORTH. SO YEAH, IT WOULD GO TO THE SOUTH. BUT YOU WOULD, I MEAN THAT WOULD BE ONE, I, I HESITATE TO SEE IT SAY IT WITHOUT SEEING IT BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO DESIGNATE THIS FRONT, I'M NOT SURE. THE ONE NICE THING IS THE TOPOGRAPHY OF THE SITE CONCEALS A LOT OF ON THE SOUTH AND THE, UH, WEST BECAUSE OF THE TOPOGRAPHY IT SITS DOWN. UM, IF YOU'RE OPPOSED TO CREATING A, A FRONT AREA HERE, I DON'T, I JUST, [01:40:01] I GUESS I WOULD HAVE TO SEE IT, BUT THAT'S WHAT I WAS KIND OF GETTING AT WAS IF THIS NEW CONSTRUCTION AREA COULD BE FLIPPED DIAGONALLY OVER AND BE SUBORDINATE TO THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE. AND IF YOU, AND TO DO THAT, YOU COULD IN DESIGNATE RIVERVIEW AS THE FRONT, WHICH WOULD THEN VISUALLY GIVE YOU AN EASY, UM, COMP, YOU WOULD BE IN MORE IN COMPLIANCE ASSUMING THAT THE STRUCTURE, THE ADD-ON IS NOT OVERPOWERING FROM BEHIND, BUT IF IT'S CONCEALED BY THE BOUNDARIES OF THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE AND THE FRONT IS ON RIVERVIEW. DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M SAYING? THAT'S WHERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TRYING TO GET TO THE SUBORDINATE NATURE OF THE ADDITION. YEAH. WHEN YOU WALK AROUND THE DISTRICT, YOU'LL SEE A LOT OF THE, UM, ADDITIONS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE. I WOULD USE THE TERM SHOTGUN. THEY TEND TO, THEY FLOW BACK FROM WHEREVER THE STREET, THE MAIN WHATEVER THEY DESIGNATED AS THE MAIN STREET, THE FRONT STREET AND THEY FLOW, THEY THEIR BACK OF IT. THE, THE DIMENSIONS ARE WITHIN THE DIMENSIONS OF THE OLD HOUSE FROM VIEWING IT FROM THE FRONT. UM, AND THERE'S USUALLY A HYPHEN SEPARATION. YOU'LL SEE IT ALL OVER THE DISTRICT AND YOU ALWAYS GET THIS SHOTGUN EFFECT. AND I KNOW THAT'S, YOU REALLY, WHEN YOU HAVE A HOUSE, YOU WANT IT TO BE ONE CONTAINED UNIT AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE THE WRAPAROUND IDEA, BUT YOU JUST CAN'T DO THAT WITHIN THE GUIDELINES. WELL, AND I GUESS, YOU KNOW, UNFORTUNATELY WHEN THE, AT THE TIME OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT'S DEVELOPMENT, IT WAS LONG NARROW LOTS. SO THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE CONFINED WITH AS WELL. YOU ALSO HAVE THE ADDED CONFINES OF THE EASEMENTS ALONG, UH, BLACKSMITH LANE AND A STRUCTURE IN THE BACK THAT HAS TO BE PRESERVED AND ALL. ALL I WANTED TO ADD IS, IS UM, ON, IN SOME CASES ONCE THAT ADDITION'S GOTTEN CONSIDERABLY BEHIND THE HOUSE AND THERE'S A HYPHEN, THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF FLEXIBILITY. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PRECISELY YES. BEHIND THE HOUSE. SO IF FOR SOME REASON, IF, IF THE PROGRAMMATIC REQUIREMENTS OF GETTING IN AND OUT OF GARAGE, YOU NEED TO PUSH SOMETHING IN ONE DIRECTION ONCE YOU'RE BACK FAR ENOUGH FROM THE ORIGINAL HOUSE. IF YOU HAVE TO MOVE FROM ONE SIDE OF THE OTHER OF THE WIDTH OF THE HOUSE TO SOME, THERE'S SOME FLEXIBILITY THERE. SO LIKE THAT ORANGE LINE IS PRETTY MUCH ON THE SOUTH SIDE SHOWING THE GABLE AT THE SECOND FLOOR OF THE ORIGINAL HOUSE. YOU KNOW, IF YOU'D NEED TO GO BEYOND THAT POINT, UM, A LITTLE BIT, UM, TO GET THE SQUARE FOOTAGE YOU COULD AND IT'LL BE CONCEALED ANYWAY FROM THE WALL. MM-HMM. HERE AND FROM THE FRONT BECAUSE OF THE PORCHES. OKAY. THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR COMING. OKAY. ALRIGHT. RIGHT. ALL RIGHT SARAH. [COMMUNICATIONS] ALL RIGHT. JUST A COUPLE QUICK THINGS YOU HAVE AT YOUR SEATS. THE FINAL ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS DOCUMENT, AND THAT IS ALSO ON OUR WEBPAGE NOW AS A RESOURCE, YOU'RE GONNA SEE US REFERRING TO IT MORE IN OUR STAFF REPORTS AND USING IT AS A RESOURCE. AND AGAIN, WE'RE GONNA BE UPDATING IT EVERY CALENDAR YEAR SO THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S ALWAYS THERE AS A, AS A CURRENT RESOURCE FOR YOU. SO SARAH, I ASSUME TONIGHT'S THE PICTURE OF THAT WHEN IT'S DONE WE'LL END UP IN HERE. RIGHT? SO THAT'LL BE HOW YOU'LL DO IT NEXT, WHENEVER, LET'S SAY A YEAR FROM TODAY. EXACTLY. YOU'LL PUT THAT PICTURE IN HERE, SAY A WAIVER WAS DONE AND IT'LL COME OUT AGAIN LIKE THIS IN JANUARY OF 2025. PERFECT. IF IT'S, IF IT'S BUILT , YES. OKAY. CORRECT. BUT YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. AND THEN I BELIEVE I HEARD FROM EVERYBODY THAT THE 16TH OF OCTOBER WAS A GREAT DAY FOR THE SITE TOUR. OKAY. MIGHT BE CHILLY AND WET, BUT WE'LL BE IN A BUS. RIGHT. . SO WET TRUE. RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S ALL I HAD. DO WE ANYTHING ON THE ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVALS OR DO WE THAT THAT'S A GOOD, GOOD POINT. DID ANYBODY HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR ABOUT THOSE APPROVALS? NO. DO WE HAVE TO MAKE A MOTION OR NOTHING? MM-HMM. NO, THAT'S INSIDE THE, I I THOUGHT THAT I READ 'EM ALL. NOW FOR ME IT LOOK CLEAR [01:45:01] WHY YOU, WHY THEY WERE DONE. SO THANK THANK FOR SENDING THAT. IT'S MAKES IT CLEAR WHY THEY WERE DONE AND WHAT THE RATIONALE. SO, AND ULTIMATELY THAT'S WHERE WE WANT TO GO WITH MORE OF THESE TO CLEAR SOME OF THIS OFF OF YOUR DOCKET, SO. EXACTLY. EXACTLY. AND YOURS. OKAY. ALRIGHT. AND OUR NEXT MEETING IS GARY'S LAST MEETING. AND IT'S UNTIL WE PETITION, LET'S SAY I GOT THAT ONLINE PETITION GOING , UM, FOR, UH, MAY 29TH. THAT'S RIGHT. MAY 9TH. ALRIGHT. ALRIGHT. I THINK WE'RE ADJOURNED. OKAY. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.