* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. IT'LL GET, [00:00:01] I'VE GOT SIX 30 ON MY PHONE. YOU GOT SIX 30. GOOD EVENING EVERYBODY. I WANT TO CALL THE MEETING TO ORDER. WELCOME TO THE, UH, CITY OF DUBLIN ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW BOARD SPECIAL MEETING BEING HELD AT 5 5 5 5 PERIMETER DRIVE. THE MEETING CAN ALSO BE ACCESSED VIA THE LIVESTREAM VIDEO RECORDED ON THE CITY'S WEBSITE. WE WELCOME PUBLIC PARTICIPATION, INCLUDING PUBLIC COMMENT ON ALL THE CASES. THE MEETING PROCEDURE FOR EACH CASE THIS EVENING WILL BEGIN WITH A STAFF OR CONSULTANT PRESENTATION. THEN THE BOARD WILL ASK CLARIFYING QUESTIONS TO STAFF OR THE CONSULTANT. THE BOARD WILL THEN HEAR PUBLIC COMMENTS FROM THE PODIUM. UH, PLEASE EACH SPEAKER PROVIDE THEIR NAME, ADDRESS, AND ADDRESS FOR THE RECORD FOLLOWING PUBLIC COMMENT, INCLUDING THOSE SUBMITTED BY EMAIL. THE BOARD WILL DELIBERATE ON CASES PRIOR TO RENDERING A DECISION. SO, JUDY, COULD YOU PLEASE CALL THE ROLL? YES, MR. JEWEL. HERE. MS. DAMER. HERE. MR. COTTER. HERE. MS. COOPER HERE. AND MR. ALEXANDER WILL BE A LITTLE LATE. YEP. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, GARY'S NOT HERE. AND I FORGOT TO, AND I FORGOT TO SAY THE PLEDGE. SO IF WE COULD ALL PLEASE WE OPEN OUR MEETINGS WITH THE PLEDGE. IF WE COULD ALL STAND AND FACE THE FLAG AND WE WILL START WITH THE PLEDGE. I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG. THE FLAG. UNITED, UNITED STATES OF UNITED STATES AMERICA. AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER INDIVISIBLE WITH LIBERTY AND FOR ALL. JU HAVE, [ACCEPTANCE OF DOCUMENTS] OR DO WE HAVE A MOTION TO ACCEPT THE, UM, UH, DOCUMENTS INTO THE RECORD? SO MOVED. SECOND. MR. COTTER? YES. MR. JEWEL? YES. MS. DAMER? YES. MS. COOPER? YES. GOOD. UM, SO JUST, UH, THE ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW BOARD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE REVIEW OF CONSTRUCTION AND MODIFICATIONS OR ALTERATIONS TO ANY SITE IN THE AREA SUBJECT TO ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW UNDER THE PROVISION OF THE ZONING CODE SECTION 1 53 1 7 0. THE BOARD HAS DECISION MAKING RESPONSIBILITY ON THESE CASES. ANYONE WHO INTENDS TO ADDRESS THE BOARD ON CASES THIS THE EVENING MUST BE SWORN IN. SO IF EVERYBODY WHO'S HERE, UH, WILL PLEASE BE, RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND AND BE, UH, PREPARED TO SWEAR IN. ANYBODY INTENDING TO ADDRESS THE BOARD ON CASES THIS EVENING, RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND ANSWER IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. DO YOU SWEAR TO SWEAR OR AFFIRM TO TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN YOUR TESTIMONY TO THIS BOARD? THANK YOU. UH, SO WE WILL START WITH THE FIRST CASE, UH, AN [Case #23-081ADMO] ALTERNATE MATERIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REQUEST. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. AND GOOD EVENING BOARD MEMBERS. TONIGHT WE HAVE A REQUEST TO APPROVE AND ADOPT THE ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS DOCUMENT AS A LEARNING RESOURCE FOR HISTORIC DISTRICT AND APPENDIX G PROPERTIES. THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED TO BE USED BY APPLICANTS ARCHITECTS, PLANNING STAFF, AND OF COURSE THE BOARD MEMBERS. AS A QUICK RECAP, THE PROJECT STARTED IN 2021 AND IT WAS STARTED AS A PART OF PRE-APPROVED PAINT COLORS. AND THEN THE STAFF CREATED A DOCUMENT THAT INCLUDED ALL THE ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS THAT COULD BE USED WITHIN THE DISTRICT BASED ON THE BOTH FEEDBACK AND SUGGESTIONS. THE DOCUMENT IS NOW A VERY CONCISE DOCUMENT AND ONLY INCLUDES ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED IN THE PAST BY THE USE OF A WAIVER AND APPROVED BY THE ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW BOARD. THE DOCUMENT NOW PRIORITIZE PRESERVING THE ORIGINAL MATERIAL OR USING A HISTORIC MATERIAL FIRST. AND LASTLY, USING AN ALTERNATIVE MATERIAL AS A DOCUMENT. THIS ALSO INCLUDES GUIDANCE AND RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE PROPERTY OWNERS, ARCHITECTS, AND ANYONE WHO'S THE APPLICANT, AND IDENTIFIES WHAT THE PROPERTY CLASSIFICATION IS ON HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO USE AN ALTERNATIVE MATERIAL. DEPENDING UPON WHAT THE PROPERTY TYPE IS, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT A MATERIAL THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED IN THE PAST WITH THIS DOCUMENT, THEY'RE, IT WOULD BE STRAIGHTAWAY APPROVED. THEY WILL STILL NEED TO MEET THE WAIVER CRITERIA, AND IT IS QUERY DOCUMENTED IN THE ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS DOCUMENT. THIS ALSO INCLUDES THE DESCRIPTION OF EACH MATERIAL ALONG WITH ITS ADVANTAGES, ITS ADVANTAGES, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE REASONS FOR APPROVAL FOR THIS ALTERNATIVE MATERIAL. THIS ENDS WITH A RESOURCE, UM, WHICH INCLUDES MANUFACTURER DETAILS AND SOME OTHER INFORMATION THAT WILL BE HELPFUL TO THE APPLICANT OR A HOUSE OWNER OR ANYONE WHO'S APPLYING STAFF WILL UPDATE THIS DOCUMENT ANNUALLY AND WILL INCLUDE ANY OF THE ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED THROUGHOUT THE YEAR, WHICH HAS MET THE WAIVER CRITERIA AND OBVIOUSLY APPROVED BY THE ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW REVIEW BOARD. SARAH, THE DOCUMENT? SARAH, JUST, SARAH, JUST MAYBE A POINT OF COURT. I DON'T THINK IT'S BEING RECORDED. I MEAN, NORMALLY IT COMES UP ON HERE. DO WE KNOW? I MEAN, NORMALLY THE LIVE [00:05:01] FEED IS ON THIS, ON THIS VIDEO, SO IT'S, I DON'T Y YEAH, I DON'T, I KNOW IF IT STARTED OR DIDN'T START, SO JUST, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON AND IT JUST AN FYI IF IT NEEDS TO BE. YEP. COULD YOU PLEASE, JUDY? THANK YOU SO MUCH. SHOULD I PAUSE OR CONTINUE? I KNOW WHAT WE CAN CONTINUE. I DUNNO IF WE CAN GO AHEAD. RIGHT. OKAY. OH, I, WE SHOULD DO JUDY AND JUST TO TAKE THE NOTES IN OR, BUT WE ARE, EVEN IF WE DON'T HAVE IT, IT'S DOCUMENTED. IT'S BEING DOCUMENTED. IT'S, YEAH. YEAH. IT'S DOCUMENTED, BUT WE SHOULD PROBABLY WAIT TILL, UH, JUDY COMES BACK. YEAH. FOR ME, I THINK, UH, BEFORE WE GO ON, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. I, I WOULD AGREE. YEP. YEAH. SORRY, RON. YEAH, YEAH. PERFECT. OKAY. OKAY. SO I WOULD JUST CONTINUE, UM, ON THE ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS DESCRIPTION, STAFF INITIALLY PRESENTED THE DOCUMENT IN SEPTEMBER, 2023 MEETING, AND BASED ON THE FEEDBACK, WE HAD DONE NUMEROUS REVISIONS AND A FINAL DRAFT WAS PRESENTED AT THE MARCH MEETING. STAFF WOULD LIKE TO THANK ALL THE BOARD MEMBERS FOR THE FEEDBACK AND ALL THE INPUT THAT WAS GIVEN. TONIGHT WE HAVE A DOCUMENT THAT INCORPORATES ALL THOSE CHANGES ALONG WITH THE FORMATTING AND OTHER SUGGESTIONS THAT WAS SUGGESTED BY THE VOTE. STAFF WOULD LIKE TO REQUEST THE VOTE TO APPROVE THIS DOCUMENT AND ADOPT THIS AS A LEARNING RESOURCE FOR THE HISTORIC DISTRICT PROPERTIES, AS WELL AS THE APPENDIX G PROPERTIES. ONCE THIS IS ADOPTED, [00:10:01] STAFF WOULD THEN DISPLAY IT OR INCLUDE US AS AN ADDITIONAL RESOURCE ON THE CITY'S HISTORIC DISTRICT WEBPAGE. THANK YOU SO MUCH. AND WITH THAT, I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. DO YOU WANNA CONTINUE? YEAH, I DON'T HAVE YOU, GO AHEAD. NO, GO AHEAD. ALRIGHT. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? I KNOW WE'VE HAD PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW IT. TO DISCUSS IT. ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? HAS THERE, HAS ANY PUBLIC COMMENT BEEN? NO. OKAY. NO. AND, OKAY. AND IS ANYONE IN THE AUDIENCE WANNA SPEAK TO THIS? OH, OKAY. ALRIGHT. WELL, WITH THAT BEING SAID, THEN I DO HAVE JUST A TYPO TYPE THING I CAUGHT IF I COULD. SURE. IN SECTION 1.4, YOU PROBABLY HAVE HAD, I WASN'T HERE FOR THE FEBRUARY MEETING UNFORTUNATELY, SO YOU MAY HAVE HAD DISCUSSION ON THIS, BUT IN THE SECOND SENTENCE IT SAYS, THIS DOCUMENT GUIDES PROPERTY OWNERS ON MATERIALS THAT THE BOARD HAS PREVIOUSLY APPROVED VIA THE WAIVER PROCESS. I DIDN'T KNOW IF THAT SHOULD BE ON OR WITH, AND I ALSO WONDERED IF THE WORD, VARIOUS MATERIALS THAT THE BOARD HAS PREVIOUSLY APPROVED WOULD BE HELPFUL. AND THEN MY SECOND COMMENT IN THAT SAME PARAGRAPH IS RIGHT BEFORE THE SECOND CODE CITATION, IT JUST SAYS AS REQUIRED BY THE CODE SECTION, IT, YOU DON'T NEED THE, THE SO AS REQUIRED BY CODE SECTION 1 53, 1 76 L FIVE. SURE. WE CAN INCORPORATE THOSE CHANGES. I, I DIDN'T KNOW, AND I ALSO WAS JUST HAVING A LITTLE TROUBLE EVEN FINDING 'EM FROM MY NOTES FROM THE PRIOR VERSION THAT I HAD, BUT I ALSO HAD JUST HAD A QUESTION IS SINCE WE MIGHT REMOVE MATERIALS THAT ARE NO LONGER ARE CONSIDERED TO BE MEETING OUR CRITERIA OR STANDARD, SHOULD THAT BE SAID ANYWHERE? OR IS THAT SUFFICIENTLY IMPLIED? BECAUSE IT COULD BE ADDED TO THE LAST SENTENCE TO INCLUDE ANNUALLY TO INCLUDE NEW PRODUCTS THAT MET THE WAIVER CRITERIA AND REMOVE MATERIALS NO LONGER MEETING THE WAIVER CRITERIA? WE COULD INCLUDE THAT IF WANTED, BUT I THINK, UM, WHAT IT EXPLAINS IS IT'S SELF-EXPLANATORY THAT IT WOULD NOT INCLUDE ANY MATERIALS THAT WOULD NOT READ THE WAIVER CRITERIA. I, I KNOW THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THAT, AND EVERY SITUATION IS CONSIDERED SEPARATELY CON YOU KNOW, WHAT THE REQUEST IS AND HOW IT FITS INTO THAT PARTICULAR STRUCTURE, ET CETERA. I JUST, YOU DO YOU WANT, I'M, I YOU WANT A FORMAL PROCESS OR A PROCESS IDENTIFIED FOR REMOVING MATERIALS VERSUS I THINK WHAT SAYING IS, SINCE WE VOTE ON EVERY PROJECT, WHEN A NEW MATERIAL COMES UP, IF WE DECIDE THAT, OR THE BOARD DECIDES THAT MATERIAL IS INAPPROPRIATE, ESSENTIALLY IT'LL BE DONE AT THE TIME THAT THE PROJECT COMES UP. BUT WHAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR IS SOMETHING SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT, I THINK. IS THAT CORRECT? WELL, I AGREE THAT THAT'S HOW WE'LL HANDLE EACH REVIEW FOR EACH PROJECT IN WHETHER IT'S A NEW MATERIAL WE HAVEN'T PREVIOUSLY APPROVED OR A MATERIAL THAT WE HAVE PREVIOUSLY APPROVED, BUT WE MAY NOT APPROVE IN A SUBSEQUENT PROJECT. THAT IS, THAT IS JUST HOW THE APPROVAL IS DONE. BUT SINCE THEY'RE GOING TO UPDATE THIS ANNUALLY, AND THEY'RE SAYING SO THAT THEY'LL UPDATE THE DOCUMENT ANNUALLY TO INCLUDE NEW PRODUCTS THAT HAVE MET THE WAIVER CRITERIA, MEANING WE HAVE REVIEWED THOSE AND APPROVE THEM. DOES THERE ALSO NEED TO BE, UH, AND MAYBE THIS WOULD NEVER EVEN HAPPEN, BUT DOES THERE NEED TO BE A STATEMENT TO THE EFFECT AND REMOVE MATERIALS NO LONGER MEETING THE WAIVER CRITERIA? IN OTHER WORDS, WE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH A PARTICULAR MATERIAL AND THEN WE FIND OUT IT'S NOT MEETING OUR STANDARDS, IT'S NOT WORKING THE WAY WE HAD ASSUMED OR HAD BEEN TOLD OR HAD HAD IT PRESENTED. AND THEN NOW WE HAVE A PROJECT THAT WANTS TO USE IT AGAIN AND THEY'RE SAYING, WELL, YEAH, APPROVED IT AND HERE, YOU KNOW, BUT LATER WE DON'T. WE TAKE IT OUT BECAUSE IT'S NO LONGER, I MEAN, FOR WHATEVER REASON, IT'S NO LONGER WHETHER IT FADES OR IT, UH, CURLS IN THE HEAT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO ALL I WAS THINKING WAS YOU'RE GONNA KEEP UPDATING THE LIST EVERY YEAR TO INCLUDE [00:15:01] THE ONES THAT WERE APPROVED. IF SOMETHING HAPPENS, THAT ONE IS NO LONGER APPROVABLE. DO WE, DO WE NEED TO SAY IT? IT MAY BE SUPERFLUOUS INFORMATION, SO IT MIGHT NOT EVEN BE NECESSARY. BUT I JUST GET CONCERNED ABOUT CITIZENS SAYING, WELL, YOU APPROVED IT BEFORE, AND THEN WE ARE SAYING, BUT IT NO LONGER MEETS THE STANDARDS BECAUSE X, Y, Z, WE CAN'T, WE DON'T APPROVE IT ANYMORE. THAT WAS MY POINT. IT'S A SMALL ONE. I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE IT INTO A BIG ONE AT ALL BECAUSE WE HAVE A MATERIAL ON THERE. THAT IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. 'CAUSE VINYL WINDOWS. BUT WE GIVE THE, WE GIVE THE CONTEXT FOR HOW, BECAUSE WE, WE PROBABLY 95% OF THE PROJECTS THAT COME BEFORE US, WE'VE NEVER APPROVED VINYL WINDOWS. BUT THE CONTEXT IS GIVEN FOR THE APPROVAL OF THAT IN THE DOCUMENT. SO LIKE FOR AN OUTBUILDING THAT'S NON-CONTRIBUTORY OR, WELL, IN THIS OR BACKGROUND IN THAT CASE IT WAS 'CAUSE THEY, THEY ALREADY HAD 'EM ON THE REST OF THE HOUSE OR RIGHT. IN THE CASE OF ONE THAT WAS ALREADY THERE TO MATCH. DOES ANYBODY ELSE FEEL THAT THEY WANT, THEY FEEL LIKE THIS LANGUAGE THAT MARTY'S SUGGESTING SHOULD BE INCORPORATED? I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT GOING IN. I JUST DON'T KNOW THAT WE'RE EVER GONNA REMOVE ANYTHING. I DON'T, BUT IT, IT CAN'T HURT. IT'S NOT SAY ALL IT BASICALLY IS, IS WE RESERVE THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T HAVE A RIGHT. BUT WE RESERVE THE AUTHORITY TO REMOVE ANYTHING. AND, AND THAT'S OKAY. WE CAN ALWAYS RESERVE IT. WE DON'T HAVE TO USE IT. SARAH, I I DO HAVE AN OBSERVATION. UM, I THINK THAT THE LANGUAGE IN THE DOCUMENT HAS BEEN VERY, VERY CAREFUL TO SAY THAT JUST BECAUSE IT'S INCLUDED HERE DOESN'T MEAN IT'S GONNA BE RIGHT IN EVERY CASE. SO IF WE FIND FOR SOME REASON THAT SOMETHING IS NOT PERFORMING WELL OR YOU KNOW, THE EXAMPLES THAT YOU PROVIDE MS. COOPER, UM, I THINK WE CAN RELY ON HOW IT'S USED, THE CONTEXT OF IT, YOU KNOW, THE PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCES TO HELP US MAKE THAT DECISION. AND I TOTALLY AGREE. MY CONCERN WAS MORE OR LESS GENERAL PUBLIC REVIEW, LIKE SOMEONE WHO ISN'T FAMILIAR WITH THE PROCESS OR THE WAIVER OR THE PARTICULARS. WE DO SAY CLEARLY RIGHT IN THE BEGINNING, GET INVOLVED WITH PROFESSIONALS WHO HAVE EXPERIENCE. BUT I HAVE, MAYBE IT'S BEING OVERLY CAUTIOUS OR WHATEVER. I JUST WONDERED IF, IF WE EVER THOUGHT, WELL, WE MIGHT REMOVE SOMETHING, LET'S SAY, UH, VINYL TRANSOM OR WHATEVER, THAT ONE VENT THING. WE HAD THAT ONE TIME AND WE SAID YEAH, THE FI POND VENT PON. THANK YOU . I DON'T REMEMBER THAT VERY WELL. YES. YEAH. BUT IT, IT'S, AGAIN, IT COULD JUST BE SUR SUPERFLUOUS, MY OVERACTIVE LEGAL BRAIN. I DON'T KNOW. I'M JUST WONDERING IF, I JUST DON'T WANT US TO BE ASSUMING THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND CLEARLY EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE HAS TO BE REVIEWED FOR APPROVAL, EVEN IF PREVIOUSLY APPROVED AND THAT IT'S POSSIBLE IT WOULDN'T BE APPROVED AND IT COULD BE NOT APPROVED BECAUSE IT'S NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THE PROJECT, BUT IT COULD ALSO NOT BE APPROVED BECAUSE SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED IN ITS, IT'S GIVING OFF BS OR WHATEVER. I DON'T, YOU KNOW, IT'S NO, NOT PERFORMING TO THE STANDARD WE ANTICIPATED BASED ON THE MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTIES. SO I JUST WONDERED IF THAT WAS HELPFUL FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC. BUT FOR SEAN, MIKE, I, I MEAN, I DON'T MIND, BUT I THINK IT SAYS WE WILL UPDATE ANNUALLY TO INCLUDE, SO IT'S GONNA BE UPDATED ANNUALLY. AND THE SECOND I, I TAKE THAT TO MEAN WE'RE GONNA UPDATE IT AND IT COULD BE INCREASED OR DECREASED. RIGHT? I MEAN, I'M OKAY TO ADD IT. OKAY. SO IT'S A LITTLE MUCH, BUT I, I'M NOT, UH, YEAH, IT'S JUST BASICALLY SAYING THE OPPOSITE AS WELL. INCREASE OR DECREASE, IT SAYS IT WILL INCLUDE NEW PRODUCTS. RIGHT. AND ONE FURTHER OBSERVATION, THINKING ABOUT WHEN THIS PROJECT STARTED, UM, AND WE FIRST TALKED ABOUT DO WE WANNA COME FORWARD WITH THIS? IF YOU REMEMBER THE DOCUMENT THAT WE DID START WITH FROM OUR CONSULTANT THAT HAD A LOT OF DIFFERENT MATERIALS IN IT AND IT, IT WAS COMPLICATED AND VOLUMINOUS AND THERE WERE A LOT OF MATERIALS THAT [00:20:02] WE WOULD MOST LIKELY NEVER EVEN SEE IN THIS DISTRICT. SO I THINK THAT THE BOARD'S DIRECTION WAS TO PARE IT DOWN AND MAKE IT IN THE AFFIRMATIVE OF WHAT WE DO WANNA APPROVE WHAT HAS WORKED IN THE PAST. AND I, I WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE NOT DEVIATING FROM THAT PATH. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. I JUST, LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION. HAVE, IS THERE SOMETHING THAT THE BOARD HAS APPROVED IN THE PAST THAT HAS NOT INCLUDED IN THIS? NO. YES. SO I DON'T KNOW. ALL THE WAIVERS. YEAH. YEAH. AND THAT'S HOW IT'S WRITTEN. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE WANNA BE REMOVING THINGS. EVEN IF IN THE FUTURE WE DECIDE THEY'RE NOT UP TO PAR, UM, I THINK THEY STILL SHOULD BE IN HERE. WE JUST WON'T APPROVE THEM THE NEXT TIME THEY GO AROUND. I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. IT WAS JUST AN OBSERVATION THAT I WANTED TO BRING UP. AND THEN, UM, IT'S A GOOD THOUGHT. IN THE NEXT SECTION, WHICH IS CHAPTER TWO, ALTERNATIVE BUILDING MATERIALS IN THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE MAY BE ASKED TO CONSIDER ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS. AGAIN, THIS IS REALLY A SEMANTICS OBSERVATION, BUT IT, SHOULD IT BE USE OF ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS OR JUST CONSIDER ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS? AND THAT COULD BE, THAT'S MY QUESTION. I I'M GONNA BE A, A WORD NERD LIKE YOU ARE BEING RIGHT NOW. AND I I THINK IT'S BETTER WRITTEN THE WAY IT IS. OKAY. UM, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE DO. WE CONSIDER, WE DON'T USE THEM. WE CONSIDER SOMEBODY ELSE'S USE. OKAY. AND THEN THE LAST ONE I HAD IS ON PAGE, WELL, IT'S SECTION 2.4. AND THIS MAY BE CHANGED FROM THE VERSION I REVIEWED ONLINE. I MADE A NOTE IN 2.4, WHICH WAS PREVIOUSLY PAGE 12, WHICH MIGHT BE PAGE 14. NOW. LET ME LOOK. NO, I THINK IT'S HERE IN THE BEGINNING. ANYWAY, THE PHRASE WAS, DOOR MATERIALS INCLUDE TRADITIONAL MATERIALS LISTED ABOVE, WHICH, YEAH, THAT'S NOT IN THIS, I THINK IT'S NOT IN THERE NOW ACCORDING TO THIS. BUT THERE USED TO SAY DOOR MATERIALS INCLUDE TRADITIONAL MATERIALS LISTED ABOVE. AND THEN I NOTICED THAT DOOR MATERIALS WERE NOT LISTED, BUT WINDOW MATERIALS WERE LISTED BEING WOOD METAL CLAD WOOD OR VINYL CLAD. SO I JUST WAS CONFUSED BECAUSE, BUT I THINK IN THIS VERSION, THE STATEMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED. SO VERSUS THE ONLINE VERSION THAT WAS SENT TO ME IN OUR PACKET. YEAH, WE'VE UPDATED THAT. ARE YOU OKAY WITH IT AS IT'S DOCUMENTED? YEAH, LIKE I SAID, I, I JUST, I, WHEN I GOT TO LOOK AT THIS HARD ONE HERE AND I WAS LOOKING TO FIND EXACTLY WHERE I HAD MADE MY NOTES, I WAS NOT SEEING IT, THE LANGUAGE THAT USED TO BE THERE. SO, SO AS YOU NOTE THE FIVE, IT WASN'T HERE BECAUSE IT USED TO SAY DOOR MATERIALS INCLUDE TRADITIONAL MATERIALS LISTED ABOVE AND THEN IT CITED, UH, THE ABOVE WOULD'VE BEEN THE WINDOWS SECTION. SO I THINK THAT TEXT HAS BEEN REMOVED. SO GOOD. 'CAUSE THAT WAS SOMETHING I THOUGHT DIDN'T, WASN'T CONSISTENT. ANYTHING ELSE? NOPE. OKAY. SO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT POTENTIALLY IS CHANGING A FEW TYPOS THAT HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED. OKAY. ALRIGHT. IS THERE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE DOCUMENT WITH THE MINOR REVISIONS, TYPOGRAPHIC REVISIONS THAT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED? YES. THAT SO MOVED. . I'LL SECOND. MR. COTTER? YES. MS. COOPER? YES. MR. ALL? YES. YES. MS. DAMER? YES. EXCUSE ME. YES. THANK YOU RODDY. SARAH, THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS. THANK A LOT OF GOOD WORK. IT'S REALLY NICE JOB ON THIS. ALRIGHT, [Case #24-012ADMC] OUR SECOND AGENDA [00:25:01] ITEM THIS EVENING IS THE CODE AND GUIDELINES UPDATE PHASE TWO. THIS IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE REQUEST FOR CODE AMENDMENT, UM, PROPOSAL FOR AMENDMENTS TO THE HISTORIC DISTRICT ZONING CODE AND AMENDMENTS TO THE HISTORIC DISTRICT GUIDELINES. SARAH, WHENEVER YOU'RE READY. ALL RIGHT. FABULOUS. THANK YOU FOR THE INTRODUCTION AND THIS IS INDEED THE CODE AND GUIDELINES UPDATE PHASE TWO. UH, GREG DALE FROM MCBRIDE DALE CLARION IS HERE TO HELP US AND HELP YOU KIND OF WORK THROUGH THE QUESTIONS THAT WE HAVE FOR YOU AND SEE IF WE CAN, UM, GET SOME GREAT DIRECTION FOR THIS PROJECT. UH, TONIGHT IS JUST A DISCUSSION ITEM ONLY. WE'RE LOOKING TO CONFIRM THE DIRECTION THAT IS PRESENTED IN THE MEMO. AND AS MENTIONED, GREG IS HERE TO HELP, UM, SHEPHERD US THROUGH THAT PROCESS. WE'RE GOING TO BE PROVIDING SOME TOUCH POINTS ALONG THE WAY FOR CONTINUAL FEEDBACK AS WE'VE BEEN DOING. WE WILL PROVIDE YOU DOCUMENTS EARLY AND ASK FOR, UM, COMMENTS AS WE DID WITH THE ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS. WE ARE HOPING AND ANTICIPATING THAT MAYBE BY JUNE WE'LL HAVE SOMETHING FOR YOU TO LOOK AT IN SORT OF A TRACK CHANGES FORM FOR YOUR INITIAL CONSIDERATION. UH, THE A RB WILL RECOMMEND APPROVAL, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION WILL ALSO RECOMMEND APPROVAL, WE HOPE. AND, UM, ULTIMATELY CITY COUNCIL WILL APPROVE THESE UPDATES VIA TWO READINGS. SO YOU'LL REMEMBER THE PHASE ONE EFFORT THAT WE WENT THROUGH LAST YEAR AND THAT RESULTED IN SOME NOMENCLATURE CHANGE, THE IDENTIFICATION OF AN ERA OF SIGNIFICANCE AND THE ADDITION OF OTHER UNIQUE ASSETS THAT ARE OUTSIDE THAT ERA OF SIGNIFICANCE. AND THEN FRANKLIN STREET AND SOUTH RIVERVIEW STREETS WERE, UM, SORT OF DOWNGRADED, IF YOU WILL, TO BACKGROUND BUILDINGS. UM, ALL OF THESE CHANGES ARE NOW MEMORIALIZED IN OUR UPDATED MAP, WHICH LIVES WITHIN THE GUIDELINES. SO AS A PART OF LAST YEAR'S CODE UPDATE EFFORT, WE HAD A NUMBER OF NEIGHBORHOOD MEETINGS AND WE GOT SOME VERY CLEAR REQUESTS FROM THE ATTENDEES. AND THERE WERE REALLY TWO DIFFERENT BUCKETS. AND ONE HAD TO DO WITH BACKGROUND BUILDINGS AND ONE HAD TO DO WITH ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVALS. SO FOR THE BACKGROUND BUILDINGS, THE ATTENDING PUBLIC REALLY WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WEREN'T SO FOCUSED ON ARCHITECTURAL DETAILS. STAFF ON THE OTHER HAND, WE WANT TO FOCUS ON THINGS LIKE SCALE AND MASSING AND KEEPING THINGS APPROPRIATE FOR THE DISTRICT AS A WHOLE. WE HAD SOME INITIAL DISCUSSIONS WHERE WE THOUGHT PERHAPS FOR BACKGROUND BUILDINGS, IF THERE WAS NO INCREASE IN VOLUME, HEIGHT, FOOTPRINT, PERHAPS STAFF COULD APPROVE SOME OF THESE REQUESTS. THAT WOULD BE FOR THINGS LIKE SIDING REPLACEMENT, WINDOW REPLACEMENT, THINGS LIKE THAT. SO WE WANNA CONFIRM THAT TONIGHT. AND THEN THAT SECOND BUCKET WAS CAN WE EXPAND THE ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVALS THAT STAFF OBVIOUSLY DOES? UM, IN YOUR PACKET, YOU HAVE THE LIST OF CURRENT ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVALS THAT ARE ALLOWED BY CODE. AND THEN IN THE MEMO THERE ARE SOME SUGGESTED ADDITIONS. SO THE APPROACH THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT TONIGHT OR WANTING TO DISCUSS TONIGHT IS, AGAIN, SOME BACKGROUND COMPATIBILITY LANGUAGE FOR THE GUIDELINES TO GIVE SOME, SOME GUIDANCE FOR SCALE AND MASSING AND THEN EXPANDING THE POTENTIAL FOR ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVALS. AND IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THOSE COULD APPLY TO BOTH COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS. ALSO, POSSIBLY LANDMARK AND BACKGROUND DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU ALL FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. UM, WE HAVE A LIST HERE OF POTENTIALS. THINGS LIKE SINGLE SIGNS, RESIDENTIAL HARDSCAPE THAT DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE GROUND MORE THAN THREE FEET. AWNINGS, LIGHTING, UH, COMMERCIAL EXTERIOR FURNITURE, HVAC AND TRASH SCREENING, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. AND THEN MAYBE SOME IDEAS THAT YOU ALL HAVE. [00:30:01] ANOTHER ITEM FOR POTENTIAL CONSIDERATION IS TO ALLOW A MECHANISM FOR FINAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN EXTENSIONS. THE REASON WHY WE BRING THIS UP IS WE FOR, UM, THE APOTHECARY AND UNCORKED, WE MADE THE TWO YEAR DEADLINE BY TWO DAYS BY REDOING THAT SITE PLAN AMENDMENT THAT YOU ALL SAW A FEW MONTHS AGO. AND BASED ON DIFFICULTY WITH FINANCING AND INTEREST RATES, UM, MATERIALS, THAT SORT OF THING, WE WANTED TO POSE IT TO YOU TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY INTEREST IN ALLOWING SUCH AN EXTENSION TO HAPPEN, PERHAPS UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. AND THEN THE QUESTION WOULD BE, WHO WOULD APPROVE THAT? AND THEN OF COURSE WE HAVE THE USUAL SCRIVENER'S ERRORS THAT WE'D LIKE TO ADDRESS AS WELL. TAKING A A LOOK AT SORT OF THE VOLUME REGARDING POTENTIAL ADMINISTRATIVE AMENDMENTS. WE DID A, A QUICK, UM, HISTORY DIVE ON THIS. WE'VE HAD 11 SINGLE SIGNS APPROVED BY THE BOARD SINCE THE INCEPTION OF THIS CODE. IT'S NOT A LOT, BUT IF YOU THINK OF THE APPLICANT'S TIME, FOUR TO SIX WEEKS TO MAKE AN APPLICATION GO THROUGH THE PROCESS COME BEFORE YOU, THAT'S A LOT OF TIME COMPARED TO MAYBE A WEEK FOR AN ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAL. UM, IT ALSO TAKES UP BOARD TIME, ESPECIALLY AS WE'RE GETTING SO BUSY AS A BOARD AND IT CERTAINLY TAKES UP STAFF TIME, UH, FROM A RESIDENTIAL LANDSCAPE POINT OF VIEW. USUALLY THOSE ARE TIED TO MINOR PROJECTS, BUT WE'VE HAD ONE THAT CAME FORWARD ON ITS OWN. WE HAVE ANOTHER THAT IS GETTING READY TO COME FORWARD ON ITS OWN. AND WE HAVE ONE PROJECT THAT ACTUALLY CAME BEFORE THE BOARD, FOUR SEPARATE TIMES FOR PATIOS THAN LIGHTING THAN WINDOWS AND THEN PAVING MATERIALS. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF, UM, THING COULD BE, COULD BE KEPT OUT OF YOUR REALM. UM, AT THIS POINT I WANNA TURN IT OVER TO GREG TO KIND OF GUIDE YOU THROUGH THE DISCUSSION QUESTIONS AND GET SOME VALUABLE FEEDBACK FROM YOU. AND I'LL JUST NOTE THAT WE DID GET A LETTER, UM, TO READ INTO THE PUBLIC RECORD WHEN, WHEN YOU'RE DONE WITH THE DISCUSSION BEFORE GREG STARTS, I'M GOING TO ASK A CLARIFYING QUESTION OF YOU. AREN'T YOU AS A STAFF CURRENTLY DOING COLOR? 'CAUSE THAT'S WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT OUR AS A BOARD HAVING FOR YES. HAVING THE STAFF DO COLORS FOR PRE-APPROVED COLORS, RIGHT? YES. OKAY. AND WE HAVE A PROCESS FOR THAT AND I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP BECAUSE THAT WAS ONE OF THE TOPICS THAT CAME FORWARD IN THE LETTER THAT I'LL READ INTO THE RECORD. THERE IS A REQUEST FOR THE BOARD TO CONSIDER, UM, RECENT BACKGROUND BUILDINGS PERHAPS COULD HAVE ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAL REGARDLESS OF COLOR. SO THAT'S, THAT'S AN OPTION TO PUT OUT THERE. OKAY. AND THEN THE OTHER QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU, IN THE PROPOSED ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAL OF LANDSCAPE, WOULD THAT INCLUDE ALL PAVEMENT? YES, IT WOULD BE HARDSCAPE ONLY FOR RESIDENTIAL PROJECTS. WE DON'T REVIEW PLANTS FOR COMMERCIAL PROJECTS. WE DO. AND WE'RE SAYING THAT COMMERCIAL PROJECTS REALLY NEED TO COME BEFORE YOU WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RESIDENTIAL PROJECTS IN OUR MIND. HMM. OKAY. YES. AND, AND PAVEMENT, UNLESS IT COMES OUT OF THE GROUND MORE THAN THREE FEET. SO WE'RE THINKING ELABORATE, UH, OUTDOOR KITCHENS, PERGOLAS, YOU KNOW, THINGS THAT START TO AFFECT MASSING AND OPEN SPACE BETWEEN BUILDINGS. OKAY. ANY OTHER INITIAL QUESTIONS? OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND WITH THAT I'LL TURN IT OVER TO GREG. GREAT, THANK YOU SARAH. HELLO EVERYONE. IT'S NICE TO BE BACK HERE AGAIN. UH, I'M, THE QUESTIONS AND I'M GONNA RAISE ARE REALLY A CONTINUATION OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE. SO, UM, MY, MY JOB, OUR JOB MCBRIDE DALE CLANCE JOB, IF YOU SO DIRECT US, IS TO ACTUALLY MAKE THE CHANGES TO THE GUIDELINES AND THE CODE. SO WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF WE COULD JUST USE THIS TIME TO KIND OF CIRCLE BACK AND, AND AFFIRM WHAT WE NEED TO AFFIRM. SO LET ME WALK YOU THROUGH THESE. SO THE FIRST TWO [00:35:01] DISCUSSION QUESTIONS ARE, ARE REALLY RELATED TO EACH OTHER. THE, DOES THE BOARD AGREE WITH DELEGATING AUTHORITY TO STAFF TO GENERAL, I'M SORRY, TO APPROVE CERTAIN, UM, UH, MINOR PROJECT REVIEWS FOR BACKGROUND BUILDINGS. AND IN PARTICULAR, PART OF THE UNDERSTANDING OF THAT IS THAT THESE WOULD BE FOR BUILDINGS THAT DO NOT ENLARGE THEIR FOOTPRINT OR THEIR VOLUME. SO IF SOMEBODY WANTED TO ADD ON OR ADD UP, UM, THOSE WOULD STILL COME TO YOU. SO THERE'S THAT KIND OF, THERE'S THAT THRESHOLD ISSUE. UM, AND THEN THE SECOND ONE IS JUST, IS JUST RELATED TO THE LIST THAT YOU WERE JUST GOING THROUGH THAT SARAH JUST PRESENTED TO YOU. SO WE'RE JUST LOOKING FOR ESSENTIALLY DIRECTION AND, AND LET ME, LET ME CLARIFY. WHAT WE'RE ASKING YOU TO DO IF YOU'RE SO INCLINED IS TO AUTHORIZE US TO GO AHEAD AND MAKE THOSE CHANGES AND PRESENT THEM TO YOU. OBVIOUSLY WE'RE NOT ASKING YOU TO PRE-APPROVE LANGUAGE YOU HAVEN'T SEEN, WE'RE FOCUSING ON THE POLICY DIRECTION AND THE IDEA HERE. SO WHAT YOU'VE HEARD SO FAR FOR THOSE TWO QUESTIONS, THE QUESTION IS, DOES THAT SOUND OKAY TO YOU? IS THAT SOMETHING YOU'D LIKE US TO GO FORTH AND DO? AND I WILL, LEMME JUST SAY THIS AND, AND JUST KIND OF EDITORIALIZE HERE FOR A MINUTE. I WAS AT, UH, FELT FACILITATE AT LEAST TWO OF THOSE PUBLIC MEETINGS. I THINK WHAT STAFF IS PUTTING BEFORE YOU IS RIGHT IN LINE WITH WHAT I HEARD THE MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC AND PRO AND PROPERTY OWNERS SAY AT THOSE MEETINGS. THIS IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIVE TO THE ISSUES THAT PEOPLE WERE RAISING. SO, THUMBS UP OR NOT? SO THE FIRST QUESTION, LET'S, LET'S GET THERE. THAT'S REALLY CLEAR BECAUSE CERTAIN IS REALLY VAGUE. SO YES, THAT WAS MY QUESTION. YES. THE LAWYERS, AND IT DOESN'T TAKE A LAWYER TO SEE THROUGH THAT. SO CERTAIN IS REALLY CERTAIN IS REALLY VAGUE. SO YOU MEAN, UM, THE BOARD AGREE WITH DELEGATING AUTHORITY? YOU APPROVE, YOU SAID IF IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE VOLUME IN ANY WAY. RIGHT. BUT THAT WOULD, IF YOU EXPAND THE FOOTPRINT MM-HMM. OR YOU EXPAND THE VOLUME AND BY THAT I INTERPRET THAT TO MEAN ADDING ON OR POTENTIALLY KEEPING THE SAME FOOTPRINT AND ADDING UP, THAT WOULD STILL COME BEFORE THE BOARD. THAT WOULD NOT BE DELEGATED TO STAFF AS PART OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAL. OKAY. YEAH, I THINK IT'S GOOD TO HAVE THAT CLARIFIED THERE. AND ALSO YOU HAVE LISTED SITE DESIGN FEATURES ARE MAINTAINED. SO THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER THING THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE APPROVING, IS THAT CORRECT? STAFF WOULD NOT BE APPROVING. I'M LOOKING AT THE, UNDER THE, IN THE MEMO, THE SECTION UNDER BACKGROUND, THE FIRST MAJOR BULLET. RIGHT, RIGHT. OKAY. BASED ON NEW, UH, OR SEC ACTUALLY THE FIRST MINOR BULLET COMPATIBLE SCALE MASSING AND SITE DESIGN FEATURES. SO COULD YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS NOT COMPATIBLE SCALE MASSING AND SITE DIVINE DESIGN FEATURES? WELL IF I COULD, IF I COULD ASK, CAN WE ADDRESS THAT ONE UNDER ITEM THREE? OKAY. THAT IS A SEPARATE QUESTION. WE'RE GONNA, SO FOR YOU, IT'S BETTER IF WE JUST GO THROUGH THEM ONE, TWO, AND THREE. WELL, EXCEPT THAT I, I'M STILL PUZZLING ABOUT THE WORD CERTAIN WHAT GIMME AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT WOULD BE, WHAT WOULD BE DELEGATED AAU AUTHOR. WHAT WOULD BE THE, WHAT WOULD BE A CASE WHERE IN WHICH WE WOULD BE DELEGATING AUTHORITY TO STAFF. YEAH. SARAH, CAN YOU, MAYBE YOU CAN EXPAND ON WHAT YOU HAD IN MIND WITH THAT. YOU CALL THIS ADMINISTRATIVE AUTHORITY THEN. SO THIS YES. FALL. I'M JUST, SO I'M TRYING TO BE CLEAR. 'CAUSE IT'LL FALL UNDER N RIGHT? YES. SORRY. SO THIS WILL BE ADMINISTRATIVE AUTHORITY EXTENDED TO MINOR PROJECTS AND ALL OF THIS WILL FALL UNDER N TWO, LEANING INTO TWO ONE AND TWO THREE, EXACTLY. YEAH. SO WHAT WE HAD ENVISIONED WAS SOMETHING LIKE SIDING REPLACEMENT, WINDOW REPLACEMENT, MAYBE A ROOF REPLACEMENT, UM, POSSIBLY PAINT COLORS REPLACING A DECK THAT ALREADY EXISTED. I DON'T SEE ADDING A DECK. NO, BECAUSE THAT WOULD FALL UNDER SITE DESIGN. ADDING MASSING, YOUR MY, OH, SORRY. I'M SORRY. THAT WOULD FALL UNDER EITHER ADDING MASSING OR SITE DESIGN. EXACTLY. OKAY. EXACTLY. SO IT'S THOSE KINDS OF, UM, COSMETIC THINGS OR APPLIED ITEMS TO THE EXISTING BOX OF THE HOUSE, IF YOU WILL. MM-HMM. . DOES THAT HELP? YEAH. OKAY. SO, BUT, BUT I MEAN WE'RE GONNA REVIEW AS IT, UM, BECAUSE WE, AGAIN, TO HAVE IT BE MORE CLEAR, ARE WE GONNA TRY TO CODIFY WHAT THESE ARE? BECAUSE AN END RIGHT, IT TELL AN END TOO. IT TELLS YOU ADJUSTMENTS UP TO 10% CAN BE DONE BY AS ADMINISTRATIVE SUBSTITUTIONS, REDESIGNS, UH, FENCING, THESE KIND OF THINGS ARE SITTING IN HERE. SO YOU'RE GONNA SAY YOU'RE GONNA TAKE MP, WHICHEVER SECTION THAT IS, UH, GH AND YOU'RE GONNA THEN REFERENCE N [00:40:01] AND THEN WE'RE GONNA TRY TO PUT ALL OF THE STUFF THAT SITS HERE AND TRY TO PUT IT IN THE CODE AS ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW FOR VARIETY OF THINGS, MINOR PROJECT REVIEWS OR OTHER THINGS THAT COME IN. JUST SO I'M TRYING TO BE CLEAR ON HOW WE'RE GONNA TRY TO KEEP IT SO I CAN KEEP IT STRAIGHT HOW WE'RE GOING TO, HOW WE'RE GONNA KIND OF ADMINISTRATE IT IN THAT SECTION END YOU TALKING? YEAH. OKAY. SO EVERYTHING IN DOESN'T HAVE TO BE DRAFTED AS, AS YOU SAID, CODIFIED LANGUAGE. SO AGAIN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE IDEA HERE. NOW WE'RE NOT REALLY WORD MESSAGE YET. THERE WILL COME A TIME AND THAT GETS WORSE ENOUGH BECAUSE IT'LL BE IN THE CODE, RIGHT? WHICH IS MM-HMM. . BUT, BUT N GIVES US A STARTING SPOT. YEAH. RIGHT. SO EVERYTHING IN N THEORETICALLY THAT'S CORRECT. COULD BE DONE, COULD BE DONE IN HERE. SO THIS, THAT'S KIND OF THE SPOT WHERE YOU CAN START FROM. OKAY. YEP. GOOD. I HAVE A QUESTION. WHAT IF THE STAFF ADMINISTRATIVE DECISION IS NOT, UH, FAVORABLE TO THE PROPERTY OWNER ? DO THEY THEN BRING IT TO THE BOARD AND WILL THAT BE SPELLED OUT? GOOD QUESTION. GOOD QUESTION. IF YOU GO TO N THREE ALL THE WAY THE BOTTOM G HAS AN, IT'S A APPEAL TO, TO US IF ANYBODY HAS A PROBLEM. YEAH. HAS A ONE OF TWO WAYS. OKAY. SORRY. THAT COULD OCCUR IN ONE OF TWO WAYS. ONE IS STAFF COULD MAKE THE JUDGMENT THAT THIS IS ONE THAT WE THINK NEEDS TO BE BUMPED UP. WE'VE BEEN USING THE TERM BUMP IT UP, THAT THIS COULD BE BUMPED UP TO THE A RB OR THE PROPERTY OWNER COULD ESSENTIALLY, AND I DON'T KNOW IF THIS WOULD BE DONE AS A FORMAL APPEAL OR WHETHER IT WOULD BE MORE OF THE STAFF AGREEING WITH, WITH, OR I'M SORRY, THE, THE, THE APPLICANT AGREEING WITH STAFF THAT WE WANT TO TAKE THIS TO THE BOARD. THAT THERE'S SOME JUDGMENT INVOLVED HERE THAT THIS IS A BIG ENOUGH DEAL THAT WE ALL THINK, OR ONE OF US THINKS THAT IT SHOULD GO TO THE BOARD. AND I'VE SEEN COMMUNITIES DO THAT AND, AND EVEN WHERE IT'S NOT SPECIFICALLY CODIFIED, THERE IS JUST THIS, THIS UH, FLEXIBILITY FOR STAFF TO SAY, ALRIGHT, WE'VE WORKED ON THIS ENOUGH. WE THINK THIS NEEDS TO GO TO THE BOARD. RIGHT. OKAY. MICHAEL, YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD? NO, I JUST, THAT GOES BACK TO INCREASING STAFF'S TIME ON A PROJECT THAT'S BEING COMPLICATED. WELL, I'M GONNA TALK ABOUT THE TIMING HERE IN A MINUTE. OKAY. THAT'S A, THAT'S A QUESTION I THINK WE NEED TO DISCUSS BECAUSE, UM, THE FOUR TO SIX WEEKS IS NOT TYPICAL IN MOST HISTORIC DISTRICTS. JENNY'S LOOKING AT ME, . I KNOW, I KNOW. WELL, WE'LL TALK MORE ABOUT, ABOUT, THAT'S THE, IN A MINUTE BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DEALING WITH CERTAIN ISSUES OF THE CODE. BUT I THINK THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE TOO TO HELP THE APPROVAL PROCESS. BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE WE'RE ALL OKAY WITH ONE, IF THE LANGUAGE OF CERTAIN IS SPECIFIED AND WE MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S THE APPEALS PROCESS, UM, THAT'S REINFORCED, THAT'S ALREADY IN THE CODE FOR ME, IT'S REALLY CERTAIN MEANS IT'S AN END FOR ME. RIGHT. I MEAN, FOR ME, CER I MEAN THERE'S GONNA BE SOME ADMINISTRATIVE ROOM INSIDE OF THAT, BUT IF WE'RE SAYING WE'RE GONNA DO STUFF SOMEHOW IT SHOULD SIT, I DUNNO IF IF IT, THE CODE WILL BE IN, BUT I MEAN IT SHOULD, THOSE THINGS SHOULD REALLY BE PRETTY CLEAR ON WHAT IT, WHAT IT WOULD MEAN IN A, IN A, IN A MINOR PROJECT. YES. YEAH. OKAY. YEAH. WE'RE NOT GONNA USE THE WORD CERTAIN. YEAH. AND THEN ITEM TWO IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE, UM, TO THE SPECIFIC LIST THAT'S ON HERE. AND I THINK WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR, WHAT STAFF IS LOOKING FOR IS THAT LIST. OKAY. IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO ADD TO IT? AND, AND AGAIN, WE'RE NOT, DON'T WANNA WORDSMITH TOO MUCH HERE BECAUSE THE LANGUAGE HASN'T BEEN DRAFTED YET, BUT IS THAT, OKAY, WELL WHY WOULDN'T YOU BROUGHT UP THE EXAMPLE OF WINDOWS A A MOMENT AGO. SO, UM, LIKE WHY WOULDN'T THE WINDOWS BE BEYOND HERE? IS SOMETHING, 'CAUSE THIS IS JUST BACKGROUND BUILDINGS, RIGHT? AND SO ISN'T ISN'T THIS NO, IT'S NOT, IT'S EVERYTHING THAT'S LISTED ONLY. THE FIRST BULLET IS BACKGROUND BUILDINGS. MM-HMM. . OKAY. OKAY. I'M STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IN YOUR QUESTIONS ARE BETWEEN ONE AND TWO. THEY SEEM TO BE THE SAME QUESTION. I THINK THE IDEA BEHIND ONE, SARAH AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS TODAY. I HAD A SIMILAR QUESTION. THE IDEA BEHIND ONE IS SPECIFICALLY I THINK TRYING TO GET AT THIS ISSUE OF, I PROBABLY SHOULD SAY IT MORE CLEARLY, GET AT THIS ISSUE OF, UH, THE THRESHOLD BEING THAT IT'S NOT INCREASING THE FOOTPRINT OF THE VOLUME. OKAY. OKAY. SO TWO IS, AND THEN, AND THEN TWO JUST REALLY DRILLS DOWN INTO, AND TWO IS ALSO THINGS OTHER THAN MI MINOR PROJECT REVIEW. IS THAT ALSO PART OF THIS? OR THEY'RE ALL MINOR PRO? I THINK WHERE I'M, [00:45:01] WOULD A SINGLE SIGN APPROVAL BE A MINOR PROJECT REVIEW, A SINGLE SIGN WOULD BE TYPICALLY A MINOR PROJECT. OKAY. SO I STILL DON'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO QUESTIONS, BUT YOU'VE EXPLAINED ENOUGH. MM-HMM. , YEAH. I, I HAVE, I THINK WHAT SEAN JUST TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO ME, AND I MAY NOT GET IT YET, IS THAT NUMBER TWO MEANS THOSE MODIFICATIONS TO BACKGROUND THEREIN ONE, BUT THEN THESE WOULD BE FOR EVERYTHING THESE OTHER ITEMS WOULD BE FOR LANDMARK AS WELL AS BACKGROUND. IS THAT CORRECT? RIGHT, RIGHT. OKAY. WHICH IS CORRECT NOW AND WHICH IS WHAT IT SAYS IN THE CODE TODAY. OKAY. WE, WORDS MAY HAVE TO WORDS FOR IT, BUT IT SAYS THAT TODAY IN THE CODE. THAT'S RIGHT. RIGHT. YOU THE DIRECTOR HAS THE AUTHORITY DUE TO ADMINISTRATIVE APPEALS INSIDE OF THIS FRAMEWORK. YEP. YEAH. AND THAT'S HOW I UNDERSTOOD IT, SO, YEP. OKAY. SO IS EVERYBODY OKAY? I'M OKAY WITH THE LIST WITH MAYBE THE EXCEPTION OF AWNINGS. I KNOW THAT SEEMS A LITTLE MAYBE PICKY, BUT SEEMS LIKE AWNINGS DO ADD A LOT OF DIMENSION SLASH UM, FOOTPRINT, VOLUME, ET CETERA, . SO I DON'T KNOW ABOUT HOW AWNINGS, IF IT'S JUST LIKE A COUPLE OF WINDOW AWNINGS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE AND THEY'RE GONNA REPLACE THE GRAY ONES THAT ARE FADED AND RIPPED WITH BLACK ONES OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YEAH, THAT'S EASY. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW, MAYBE AWNINGS WILL BE MORE SPELLED OUT ON HOW THAT'LL BE DONE. ARE YOU, ARE YOU SUGGESTING A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NEW AWNINGS AND REPLACEMENT OF EXISTING? IS THAT, WERE YOU, MAYBE THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO CLARIFY IT IF IT'S REPLACING EXISTING. SURE. IF IT'S FOR NEW AWNINGS THAT WOULD COME BEFORE THE BOARD. TREVOR, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WHEN YOU WROTE THIS? CERTAINLY REPLACEMENT AWNINGS ARE VERY OFTEN LIKE FOR, LIKE, AS YOU'RE SAYING MS. COOPER, IF, IF THE FABRIC IS TORN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT IS MAINTENANCE, NEW AWNINGS, YES. THEY COULD HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE, THE WAY THAT THE BUILDING SORT OF PRESENTS ITSELF ON THE, ON THE STREET. UM, THEY'RE ALSO NOT A PERMANENT KIND OF A THING. SO, YOU KNOW, IT IS, WE'RE THROWING OUT SOME IDEAS. WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU WHERE YOUR COMFORT LEVEL IS. SO WE'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT WED TO ANY OF THESE, BUT THESE ARE SOME IDEAS, AND AGAIN, MAYBE YOU ALL HAVE SOME ADDITIONAL IDEAS OR, UM, I THINK THE THINKING WAS THAT, UH, AWNINGS ARE NOT REALLY A PERMANENT KIND OF AN INSTALLATION. I THINK TOO, IF YOU'RE ONLY TALKING SPECIFICALLY JUST THE AWNINGS, YOU KNOW, OF ADDING THOSE VERSUS MOST CASES WE GET PROJECTS THAT THE AWNINGS IS ALSO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THE WHOLE PROJECT. I MEAN, THAT WOULD STILL WEREN'T COME TO US. IT'S JUST THE ONE-OFFS THAT SAY I WANT TO ADD AN AWNING TO MY EAST SIDE OF THE HOUSE OR WHATEVER. THAT'S, SO I'M KIND OF LOOKING AT IT THAT WAY. IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT CHANGING ANYTHING ELSE, BUT THEY'RE JUST ADDING THE AWNINGS VERSUS MOST PROJECTS WE SCRUTINIZE THE WHOLE THING, LOOKING AT THE AWNINGS, HOW THAT CHANGES AND HOW IT CHANGES THE APPEARANCE OF THE BUILDING. SO I DON'T KNOW SARAH, I'M I'M SORRY, GARY, GO AHEAD. UM, THE DISCREPANCY BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL, DOES THAT APPLY TO THIS LIST AS WELL? OR WOULD THIS 'CAUSE I AWNINGS SEEMED TO, AT LEAST IN MY EXPERIENCE, HAVE BEEN COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS MORE THAN IT'S BEEN RESIDENTIAL. SO THIS WOULD ALSO BE COMMERCIAL. THEY WOULD BE COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS. BUT AGAIN THAT THIS IS UP TO YOUR DISCRETION. RIGHT. NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT. I'M WHY I'M ASKING. YEAH, WE HAVE HAD, UM, REQUESTS OR INTEREST IN RESIDENTIAL AWNINGS ACTUALLY, AND NOW THAT I READ IT, YOU HAVE RESIDENTIAL AND COER, NOW THAT I READ IT, YOU HAVE RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL ON THE LIST. SO MY APOLOGIES. NO, IT'S, IT'S ALL RIGHT. SO, UH, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, WHERE, WHERE IS THAT COMFORT LEVEL? SO IN OTHER WORDS, UM, YEAH, WE WOULD LIKE THE DIRECTION, IF, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AWNINGS ON COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD STILL LIKE TO SEE COME BEFORE THE BOARD AND THE, THE AWNINGS EXCEPTION WOULD ONLY APPLY TO RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS? I THINK IF IT'S A REPLACEMENT, I HAVE NO PROBLEM IF IT'S COMMERCIAL OR RESIDENTIAL. OKAY. YEAH, I AGREE. BUT IF IT'S A NEW [00:50:01] AWNING, I AM LESS COMFORTABLE WITH JUST SAYING, OH YEAH, THAT WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING, WHETHER IT'S COMMERCIAL OR RESIDENTIAL FOR A NEW AWNING. CORRECT. OKAY. YEAH, I AGREE WITH THAT AS WELL. AND HOW, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THESE, AT THESE COMMUNITY MEETINGS AND THE MOVEMENT FOR THIS IS THAT THEY FEEL LIKE THE BOARD THAT IT'S TOO COMPLICATED TO COME BEFORE THE BOARD STAFF IS EASIER. HOW MUCH OF THAT IS AFFECTED IS THE AWNING SITUATION OR WITH THE NEW AWNINGS I SHOULD SAY? WILL THAT NOT SATISFY THE PUBLIC IF WE SAY THAT NEW AWNINGS HAVE TO COME BEFORE THE BOARD AWNINGS? WERE NOT MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY OKAY. DURING THE DISCUSS, SO THAT'S FINE. SO IF WE SAY NEW AWNINGS, OKAY, THAT'S, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THE PUBLIC WASN'T MOVING. I DON'T THINK WE COULD PUT THAT FINAL POINT ON, ON THAT QUESTION. OKAY. NO, THAT'S GOOD. THANK YOU. , BUT AWNINGS, NEW AWNING, WHETHER IT RESIDENTIAL REPLACEMENT ? YES. I THINK THAT'S GENERALLY HOW I FEEL. I HATE TO HEM THE STAFF IN ON NEW AWNINGS, BUT I DO THINK THAT NEW AWNINGS HAVE MORE OF AN IMPACT, A VISUAL IMPACT ON VOLUME, FOOTPRINT, AESTHETIC, ET CETERA. AND SO I WOULD I THINK BE MORE COMFORTABLE IF SOMEONE'S PROPOSING A NEW AWNING THAT WE SEE IT, THAT WE SEE HOW IT FITS INTO THE AREA. MY, UM, SIMILAR CONCERN IS MAYBE FOR TRASH SCREENING, WHICH IS THE LAST ITEM THERE, HVAC, WE GET A LOT OF NEW H VS ON TOP AND WE'RE SCREENING THEM REALLY WELL. AND I THINK THAT MAY BE FAIRLY EASY TO HANDLE ON AN ADMINISTRATIVE BASIS. TRASH SCREENING, IT PREVENTS, OR IT PRESENTS OTHER ISSUES BE, AGAIN, IT CAN IMPACT VOLUME, ESPECIALLY COMMERCIAL TRASH SCREENING CAN IMPACT FOOTPRINT AND VOLUME AND AESTHETIC FROM THE STREET VIEW, ET CETERA. SO, WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT WOULD CHANGE. I MEAN, WE'RE, WE'RE STILL GONNA EVALUATE WHAT THEY, WHAT THEY COME UP WITH FOR SCREENING. RIGHT. THAT'S, THAT'S NOT PROPOSED. IT WOULD STILL GET REVIEWED. IT WOULD JUST GET REVIEWED AT THE ADMINISTRATIVE LEVEL. YEAH, BUT I'M JUST SAYING I THINK THAT THAT IS THE OTHER ITEM ON THIS LIST, RIGHT. THAT MAYBE PRESENTS MORE UNIQUE OR, UM, EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES, ET CETERA. SO SUCH SUCH THAT YOU THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE BOARD SEE IT. RIGHT. WELL, AGAIN, DOES IT IMPACT VOLUME OR FOOTPRINT OR, UM, IS IT A NEW FACILITY? THOSE KINDS OF QUESTIONS MAYBE. WELL, I WOULD THINK IF IT DOES, THEN IT'S GONNA BE BUMPED UP TO US. RIGHT? IT IT'S ONLY IF IT DOESN'T AFFECT THAT, WILL STAFF BE LOOKING AT THAT? YEAH, THEY'RE JUST PUTTING NEW, YOU KNOW, KNOW, WRAP AROUND FENCING OR WHATEVER IT IS THAT THEY ARE USING CURRENTLY AS THEIR BUFFER IF THEY'RE JUST REPLACING SOMETHING THAT CURRENTLY EXISTS. BUT IF IT COMES TO THE POINT WHERE THEY NEED NEW TRASH, UM, DISPOSAL AREA, WE'LL SAY, OR, YOU KNOW, FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF THE TRUCKS OR THE BUSINESS THAT HAS CHANGED AND NOW IT'S, HAS A LOT MORE VOLUME OF WASTE. AND IF THAT WERE TO CHANGE, THAT MIGHT BE ONE OF THOSE CASES WHERE IS, IS THAT SOMETHING, I KNOW IN OTHER COMMUNITIES WHERE WE'VE WORKED, NOT NECESSARILY JUST IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, BUT THE TRASH ENCLOSURE IS OFTEN SOMETHING THAT IS LEFT A DETAIL THAT IS ESSENTIALLY LEFT UP TO STAFF. IS THAT THE KIND OF THING WHERE THE BOARD MIGHT WANT SOME LANGUAGE THAT ALLOWS STAFF TO HAVE THE FLEXIBILITY TO USE THEIR JUDGMENT TO SAY THIS LOCATION IS A BIG DEAL? UM, IT'S A MAJOR CHANGE. SO WE DO THINK THAT NEEDS TO GO TO THE BOARD VERSUS SOMETHING. OKAY. YEAH, FOR ME, I'M MORE, I MEAN, 'CAUSE I WAS IN ONE OF THOSE MEETINGS AND CERTAINLY WHAT THE, WHAT I HEARD FROM THE PUBLIC IS THEY'RE TRYING TO BE MORE MINDFUL AND I WOULD SAY OF THE, OF THEIR TIME, RIGHT, WHAT IT TAKES FOR THEM TO COME BEFORE THE BOARD AND THIS, OKAY, I WON'T SAY HOW MUCH TIME IT TAKES FOR STAFF, BUT THAT'S HOW THERE'LL BE A DIFFERENT THING. AND I THINK IF WE CAN, FOR ME, IF WE CAN FIND A WAY TO PUT ENOUGH DETAIL IN HERE THAT GIVES STAFF SOME LEEWAY, YOU KNOW, LIKE H HP, IF SOMEHOW I, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WORD, I MEAN, YOU'LL COME UP WITH SOME LANGUAGE THAT SAYS, HEY, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, SOMEHOW SEEN FROM THE STREET OR IT IS [00:55:01] DOING, IT CHANGES THE FUNCTIONALITY OF SOMETHING RIGHT. THEN SOMEHOW IT SHOULD COME TO THE BOARD. BUT YEAH, FOR ME, I WOULD SAY, 'CAUSE AT THE END ON A LOT OF THESE THINGS THAT ARE, SAY NEWER, NOT, I MEAN, STAFF WILL COME WITH RECOMMENDATION. I WOULD SAY GENERALLY WE TEND TO, WE'RE GONNA TEND TO TAKE THEIR RECOMMENDATION ANYWAYS, RIGHT? SO I WOULD, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE LANGUAGE LOOKS LIKE EXACTLY, BUT I WOULD BE MORE, I MEAN MAYBE A, A A LITTLE SOFTER AND SAY, HEY, HOW DO WE, HOW DO WE FIND A WAY THAT YEAH, THE STAFF CAN COME WITH THIS. I SEE THAT FROM THE STREET, IT'S GONNA CHANGE FUNCTIONALITY. CERTAINLY NOT THE THE OWNER, BUT THE PUBLIC IS GONNA SAY THAT DOESN'T SOMEHOW DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT. YEAH. E EITHER COMMERCIAL OR, OR RESIDENTIAL. THE, THE ON THAT SIDE. 'CAUSE I THINK, I THINK SOME BETTER LEEWAY. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT ALL LOOKS LIKE, BUT I I, YOU KNOW, I SEE WHAT YOU SAY HERE IS I BET GAME TRASH HAS ALWAYS BEEN A , IT'S BEEN A SORE SPOT A FEW TIMES. SO I MEAN, IT'S ONE OF THOSE, YEAH. IT'S SOMEHOW TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T, WELL PUT STAFF IN A BAD SPOT WHERE THEY'RE SKA AND THEN WE END UP, YOU END UP IN THAT SPOT WHERE IT'S NOT, WE'RE SUPER UNCLEAR AND THEN WE HAVE A RESIDENT THAT'S NOT HAPPY BECAUSE IT, IT WAS UNCLEAR. RIGHT? I TH I THINK, I THINK MAYBE THE WAY TO HANDLE THAT IS WHAT WE'VE JUST BEEN SHORTHAND CALLING THE BUMP UP PROVISION, RIGHT? THERE'S CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH STAFF COULD SAY THIS ONE SHOULD GO TO THE BOARD THAT NEEDS TO BE FLUSHED OUT. YEAH. WITH SOME LANGUAGE THAT MIGHT BE FACTORS TO BE CONSIDERED AND THAT ARE A, B, C, D, AND E. YEP. IS IT A MATERIAL CHANGE? IS IT A NEGATIVE IMPACT, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. YOU KNOW, THOSE SORTS OF LANGUAGE TO GIVE, TO GIVE SOME GUIDANCE AND, AND YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE KIND OF THING THAT MIGHT E EVOLVE OVER TIME. YOU MIGHT LOOK BACK ON A YEAR AND SAY, LET'S TINKER WITH THAT AND, AND YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE GAVE YOU TOO MUCH OR MAYBE WE DIDN'T GIVE YOU ENOUGH AUTHORITY. SO YOU CAN, YOU CAN MONITOR THAT, BUT I THINK THIS IDEA OF THE BUMP UP PROVISION FLESHED OUT WITH SOME GUIDELINES WOULD PROBABLY HELP. YEAH. AS YOU LOOK KIND OF IN, WHEN YOU HAVE APPEALS, YOU KNOW, HERE TWO OR TWO OF THESE THREE HAVE TO BE TRUE OR, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING, SOMETHING LIKE THAT GIVES SOMEBODY A SAY, OKAY, THEY DID THIS, THEN THIS AND THIS. OKAY, STAFF SHOULD DO THAT. IT'S ONLY ONE OR TWO OF THOSE WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT IN A DIFFERENT WAY. SOMETHING THAT GIVES EVERYBODY A LITTLE, I LIKE THAT FOR ANOTHER REASON TOO, IT GIVES THE APPLICANT CLEAR GUIDELINES IS LOOK, IF YOU WANNA SNEAK THROUGH IN THREE WEEKS, THEN DON'T DO MATERIAL CHANGES. JUST DO A REPLACEMENT IF YOU WANT. YOU KNOW, IF YOU REALLY WANNA MOVE YOUR TRASH PLACE TO SOMEWHERE ELSE, THEN YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO GO BEFORE THE BOARD. THE HARD PART WITH THE LAST TWO ON THE LIST IS THEY DO CHANGE, THEY HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO CHANGE THE MASSING OF A PROJECT. AND SO THAT'S WHY I WOULD BE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THOSE, WHICH BECAUSE THE HVAC, IF IT'S ON THE ROOF, THE CODE REQUIRES THAT YOU HAVE SOME MEANS OF KEEPING PEOPLE SAFE. SO, YOU KNOW, BETTER DESIGNERS ACTUALLY BUILD, YOU KNOW, WILL BUILD AN ENCLOSURE THAT ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE IT'S A PART OF THE ARCHITECTURE, RIGHT? UM, SOME LESS SENSITIVE OR SOMETIMES WHEN IT'S NOT CONSIDERED, IT'S JUST A PIECE OF EQUIPMENT ON THE ROOF. SO THAT DOES CHANGE THE MASSING. THE OTHER THING WITH TRASH SCREENING IS YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A VOLUME THAT'S TALLER THAN THAT THREE FOOT RESIDENTIAL HARDSCAPE APPROVALS, LESS THAN THREE FEET A TRASH SCREEN. AND WE'VE SEEN THEM FOR THE SMALLER COMMERCIAL PROJECTS THAT HAVE COME BEFORE US, THOSE WALLS ARE NEED TO BE TO HIDE A DUMPSTER FAR, FAR TALLER THAN THREE FEET. SO THOSE REALLY BECOME AN IMPORTANT PART OF THE ARCHITECTURE. SO I, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN ISOLATE THOSE TWO AT FROM THE BUILDINGS THEMSELVES. I MEAN, THEY, THEY'RE IMPORTANT PART OF THE SITE AND THE TIGHT SITES. THE SMALL SITES, WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT THE WHAT, THE WHAT THAT, THE LOCATION OF THAT TRASH ITEM. UM, AND, AND SO I THINK THOSE TWO AREN'T CONSISTENT WITH YOUR STANDARDS FOR DECISION MAKING IN THE OTHER CATEGORIES. YEAH, I THINK, NO, THESE ARE REALLY GOOD POINTS. AND YOU'RE ALL, YOU'RE ALL STARTING TO THINK LIKE LAWYERS NOW, RIGHT? I MEAN, WITH THE HVAC AND THE TRASH COMPACTOR TECHNICALLY IS CHANGING THE VOLUME. AND WHAT THAT SUGGESTS IS THAT EVEN IN THOSE CASES, WE NEED TO PROVIDE SOME, SOME DETAIL ON THAT. UM, I, I CAN'T DRAFT IT HERE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, BUT TO IT ALLOW FOR THE IDEA THAT WHERE A TRASH ENCLOSURE OR WHERE AN HVAC IS BEING ENCLOSED, IT'S BEING MODIFIED AND IT IS MATERIALLY CHANGING THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE BUILDING. THAT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT ALSO COULD BE BUMPED UP TO THAT. THOSE ARE GOOD, THOSE ARE GOOD THOUGHTS. I I, I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. I CAN SEE, I CAN SEE EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH AN HVA SYSTEM, SYSTEM UP THAT BOX IT IN AND IT MATERIALLY CHANGES THE ARCHITECTURE. AND YOU WOULD SAY, I WISH WE HAD HAD THAT BEFORE US. RIGHT? YEAH, I GET IT. OKAY. GOOD. THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE REALLY GOOD COMMENTS. I KNOW, I KNOW YOU HAVE SOMETHING BE BEYOND THAT LAST BULLET POINT THAT WE, WE WILL TALK ABOUT. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY HERE HAS, UM, PROVIDED FEEDBACK FOR [01:00:01] THE FIRST PART OF THIS. YOU FEEL, YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE ABOUT? MM-HMM. ANY, ANYTHING ELSE? OKAY, SO, SO THE EXTENSION, 'CAUSE AT THE BOTTOM OF THAT, YOU WANTED SOME FEEDBACK FOR, OH, I'M SORRY. YOU WANNA STAY BACK HERE? YEAH. DO YOU WANT, DO YOU WANT SOME FEEDBACK? YES. AND THEN I WANNA GET BACK TO THE DISCUSSION QUESTION, BUT LET'S DEAL WITH THIS WHILE IT'S UP THAT FINAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN, UH, EXTENSION. I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT THAT. WHAT WOULD BE, WHY DO WE HAVE THE DEADLINES? WHAT'S, WHAT'S THE POSITIVE OF HAVING THE DEADLINES IN THE FIRST PLACE? I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT GETTING RID OF THEM, BUT IT CHANGES HOW I ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOUT GIVING AN EXTENSION. TYPICALLY THOSE ARE INCLUDED IN ALL JURISDICTION DEVELOPMENT APPLICATIONS, SO THAT IF IT TURNS OUT THAT THE MARKET ISN'T THERE, THE FINANCES AREN'T THERE, IT ISN'T SORT OF SITTING OUT THERE IN PERPETUITY WHERE SOMEBODY CAN COME BACK SEVEN YEARS LATER AND SAY, OKAY, I'M READY TO BUILD NOW, YOU KNOW, THAT DO IT AND GET ON WITH IT OR DON'T, UH, YOU KNOW, TO PUT IT IN THE VERNACULAR, UM, OTHER LOCAL JURISDICTIONS IN THE AREA, I'M THINKING OF DELAWARE REGIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION, WHERE I SERVE, UM, IN MY SPARE TIME, UM, WE OFTEN APPROVE EXTENSIONS FOR THINGS LIKE PLATS AND SITE PLANS WHERE, YOU KNOW, THINGS ARE ONGOING, THEY'RE MAKING PROGRESS, BUT WE'RE JUST NOT QUITE THERE YET AND WE DON'T WANNA HAVE TO REWORK IT. NOW USUALLY THERE'S SOME KIND OF, UM, CRITERIA FOR THAT AND IT CAN'T JUST BE, WELL, WE'RE LAZY AND WE DIDN'T GET AROUND TO IT. IT'S GOTTA BE, YOU KNOW, SHOW US WHY THIS IS STILL A VALID PROJECT, WHY IT STILL MEETS CODE, WHY IT STILL OUGHT TO BE CONSIDERED AND A FOR CAUSE, RIGHT? YEAH. YEAH. SO WITH THE, YOU KNOW, WE CONSIDERED THE EXTENSIONS, THERE WOULD BE A, A PROCESS AS WELL THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO KEEP COMING BACK LIKE EVERY, YOU KNOW, SIX MONTHS OR, I MEAN, IF WE GRANT 'EM AN EXTENSION, BUT THEN WHEN'S IT STOP . AND THAT IS A VERY VALID QUESTION. IF WE WERE TO GRANT AN EXTENSION, HOW LONG WOULD IT BE? WHO HAS AUTHORITY TO DO THAT? AND DO YOU ONLY GET ONE? DO YOU GET A COUPLE OF 'EM? MARTY ACTUALLY BROUGHT UP SOMETHING THAT, AND, AND THE MEETING I CAME FROM ON THE AGENDA, THERE WAS A PROJECT, THE SAME THING BEING EXTENDED. UM, SO IT'S PRETTY COMMON, BUT I'VE NEVER SEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE CODE CHANGES. IF YOU EXTEND, IF YOU EXTEND SOMETHING AND THEN THE STANDARDS HAVE CHANGED, UM, UNDER WHICH IT IS APPROVED, DO YOU, WOULD YOU NEED TO QUALIFY IN YOUR LANGUAGE THAT THE EXTENSION WILL BE GRANTED FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME WITH CONDITIONS, ASSUMING THAT WITH CONDITIONS THAT, WITH THE CONDITION THAT THE CODES, THE PERTINENT CODES HAVE NOT BEEN CHANGED. GOOD, GOOD, GOOD POINT. THAT'S RIGHT. I, I WOULD THINK THAT'S RIGHT. WHEN YOU'RE, WHEN YOU'RE CONSIDERING THAT, LET'S SAY SOME ONE YEAR EXTENSION, THAT THAT WOULD BE A CONSIDERATION THAT PROVIDED THE CODE HASN'T CHANGED, MAKING IT ESSENTIALLY A LEGAL NON-CONFORMITY AT THAT POINT THAT YOU CAN'T EXTEND TO MAINTAIN SOMETHING THAT WOULDN'T COMPLY WITH THE NEW CODE. I MEAN, WE CAN WRITE IT THAT WAY. THAT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD. OR IF THE CODE HAS CHANGED THAT THE CONDITION ON THE EXTENSION IS THAT THE CONDI THAT THE CHANGE IN THE CODE IS ADDRESSED? I AM NOT SURE. I DON'T WANNA THROW IT ALL BACK TO A WHOLE NEW PROCESS, BUT IT COULD BE A FORMERLY APPROVED ALTERNATIVE MATERIAL IS NO LONGER APPROVED . SO WE COULD BE LOOKING AT SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHERE THE CHANGE IS, WELL, OKAY, WE'RE AGREEING TO YOUR EXTENSION. YOU HAVE VALID REASONS FOR THAT. WE'LL EXTEND FOR A YEAR OR SIX MONTHS, HOWEVER YOU HAD PROPOSED X, Y, Z AND THIS NO LONGER MEETS, SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CONDITION YOUR EXTENSION ON THIS MODIFICATION TO YOUR FINAL PLAN. RIGHT? CORRECT. AND, AND I THINK WHAT, WHAT I'M HEARING AND WHAT I'M THINKING, AND HONESTLY YOU'RE PUSHING US TO THINK THINGS WE HADN'T THOUGHT BEFORE, BUT IT'S NOT AN AUTOMATIC ONE YEAR. RIGHT. YOU HAVE TO ASK AND IT HAS TO BE APPROVED. AND WE COULD JUST, AS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, WE CAN SET OUT THREE OR FOUR CONDITIONS THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN EXTENSION AND THAT COULD BE ONE OF THEM THAT THERE HAVEN'T BEEN CHANGES IN THE REGULATIONS THAT WOULD BE CAUSE THIS PROJECT TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY. SO THE ANSWER [01:05:01] COULD BE NO ON THAT EXTENSION OR THAT THEY PROPOSE IN THE EXTENSION THAT THEY ADDRESS A CHANGE SPECIFICALLY. RIGHT. WHICH IS REALLY AN AMENDMENT TO THE PROJECT AT THAT POINT THAT PUTS IT ON THEM TO NOT BE SURPRISED WHEN THEY GET HERE THAT WE HAVE CONDITIONS. SO. RIGHT. I'M THINKING, YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT THE APOTHECARY ALL THE TIME AND I HOPE YOU GUYS GO BY AND SEE THAT. IT'S UNBELIEVABLE. THE LOG CABIN IS OUT . OKAY. BUT ANYWAY. OKAY. SO I THINK, I THINK WE'VE GOT THE GUIDANCE WE NEED, UH, AND WE CAN PRESENT SOMETHING BACK TO YOU AS FAR AS LANGUAGE FOR YOU TO REVIEW. OKAY. SO NOW, NOW WE WANNA TALK ABOUT NUMBER THREE. NUMBER THREE, YES. AND THIS ONE, THIS ONE IS A, IS A, FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE WORDSMITHS, THIS ONE IS ONE WHERE WE'RE A LONG WAY FROM THE WORDSMITHING YET, BUT HERE'S THE IDEA. WE HEARD A LOT OF COMMENTS, UH, BY THE PUBLIC ABOUT, UM, WHAT WE'RE NOW CALLING BACKGROUND BUILDINGS AND THERE'S MORE BACKGROUND BUILDINGS WHEN, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU HAD AT PREVIOUSLY, UH, THAT ESPECIALLY WHEN WE'RE SURROUNDED BY OTHER BACKGROUND BUILDINGS AND WHAT WOULD THAT BE? UM, UH, FRANKLIN, LIKE FRANKLIN STREET FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE YOU HAVE A WHOLE ROW OF BACKGROUND BUILDINGS THAT THE CONCERN WAS THAT THEY DIDN'T NECESSARILY WANT TO BE, TO BE TREATED LIKE LANDMARK BUILDINGS IN TERMS OF THE DETAILS OF MATERIALS AND ARCHITECTURAL DETAILS AND SO FORTH. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK THERE IS A, THERE IS AGREEMENT THAT CONTEXT MATTERS, RIGHT? SCALE, MASSING BUILDING, ORIENTATION, SITE DESIGN, THAT DOES MATTER EVEN IN A STREET. THAT'S ALL BACKGROUND BUILDINGS. SO WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IS A WAY TO, UH, WITHOUT WRITING A WHOLE NEW SET OF GUIDELINES FOR BACKGROUND BUILDINGS, WHICH WE DON'T, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST OVERKILL, IS TO BE ABLE TO KIND OF DO WHAT I'VE CALLED SURGICALLY EDIT, UH, THE GUIDELINES AND PROBABLY SOME PLACES IN THE REGULATIONS ALSO THAT MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WHEN YOU HAVE A BACKGROUND BUILDING IN FRONT OF YOU, PARTICULARLY WHEN THE CONTEXT IS A LOT OF BACKGROUND BUILDINGS, THAT YOUR FOCUS WILL BE MORE ON SCALE, MASSING CONTEXT SIGHTING AND SO FORTH, AND LESS FOCUS ON ARCHITECTURAL DETAILS THAT YOU WOULD NORMALLY BE FOCUSING ON WITH LANDMARK BUILDINGS. THAT'S, THAT'S THE IDEA HERE. HERE'S THE BEING THE ONLY DESIGN PROFESSIONAL ON BOARD, I'LL, HERE'S THE DILEMMA I SEE WITH THAT IS YOU CANNOT REMOVE THE DETAILS FROM A, FROM A CONVERSATION OF SCALE. BECAUSE THINK ABOUT THIS, IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY WINDOW TRIM OR YOU DON'T HAVE GRIDS, IT CAN COMPLETELY CHANGE THE SCALE, THE APPARENT MASS OF THE STRUCTURE BY ELIMINATING THOSE THINGS. SO, SO I DON'T THINK YOU CAN NECESSARILY COMPLETELY REMOVE DETAILS, UM, FROM CONSIDERATION AND STILL ADDRESS, UM, SCALE VERY WELL. SO, AND I THINK THAT'S THE DILEMMA HERE. I I I, I, I UNDERSTAND YOUR LOGIC OF THE LOGIC OF THE DETAILS DON'T NEED TO BE, AND I WOULD AGREE WITH THIS, THE DETAILS DON'T NEED TO BE WHAT THEY WOULD BE ON THE LANDMARK BUILDING. SO, BUT HOW YOU, BUT YOU STILL NEED, AND, AND WE SEE SOMETIMES SOME GOOD EXAMPLES OF CONTEMPORARY BUILDINGS THAT STILL WANT TO HAVE WINDOW TRIM AND THAT STILL WANT TO HAVE SOME TRADITIONAL ELEMENTS, BUT THE DETAIL IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. SO IF YOU CAN WRITE THAT, THAT'S GREAT, BUT I DON'T THINK YOU CAN SAY NO TRIM OR YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THE TRIM THAT YOU'D PUT ON A LANDMARK BUILDING. UM, SOME FLEXIBILITY I THINK IS, IS GOOD. MM-HMM, . BUT YOU CAN'T ELIMINATE THOSE THINGS. I DON'T, I DON'T THINK. YEAH. AND I, I, I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. I THINK, UM, I THINK WHEN I, I THINK THE KEY IS, IS IF, IS FOR US TO BE ABLE TO PUT INTO WORDS THIS IDEA THAT CONTEXT MATTERS, RIGHT? MM-HMM. . UM, AND SO I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE WRITING OFF THE IMPORTANCE ENTIRELY OF WINDOW DESIGN OR ROOF SHAPE OR, YOU KNOW, ARCHITECTURE OF A BUILDING. I THINK THE IDEA IS, AND THIS IS, THIS IS GONNA BE A, A DRAFTING CHALLENGE, IS GONNA BE TO SIGNAL THAT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BACKGROUND BUILDINGS, PARTICULARLY WHEN THEY'RE ALL SURROUNDED BY BACKGROUND BUILDINGS, THAT OUR FOCUS, OUR LENS IS GONNA CHANGE A LITTLE BIT THAN IT DOES FOR LANDMARK BUILDINGS. AND YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THE SEEDS OF THAT IDEA AND THE GUIDELINES NOW, I MEAN, IT TALKS ABOUT THE EMPHASIS FOR LANDMARK BUILDINGS IS, UH, PRESERVATION AND REHABILITATION. I MEAN, THERE'S SOME LANGUAGE IN THE CURRENT GUIDELINES THAT ALREADY START TO SAY, WE THINK ABOUT WHAT WE USED TO [01:10:01] CALL, UM, CONTRIBUTING BUILDINGS, NOW CALLING LANDMARK BUILDINGS. WE THINK ABOUT THOSE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY THAN WE DO THE BACKGROUND BUILDING. SO THAT, THAT SEED IS IN THE CODE IN A COUPLE OF PLACES. I THINK WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS JUST TRYING TO GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE FLEXIBILITY. AND IT WOULD BE DISCRETIONARY LANGUAGE. IT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO BE ABLE TO SAY, IN THIS CASE, THOSE WINDOWS ARE IMPORTANT BECAUSE THEY AFFECT THIS SENSE OF SCALE AND CONTEXT THAT WE HAVE HERE. SO I, AND, AND AS I SAID WHEN I STARTED, THIS ONE'S GONNA BE TRICKIER, BUT THAT WAS A, THAT WAS PROBABLY THE, THE, THE BIGGEST, MOST, UH, I DON'T WANNA SAY EMOTIONAL, BUT IN THE PUBLIC MEETINGS, THAT WAS THE BIGGEST THING WE HEARD. AND SOME OF YOU WERE THERE AND YOU HEARD THAT AS WELL. IT'S LIKE, I'VE A MIDCENTRAL MODERN BUILDING SURROUNDED BY OTHER MIDCENTRAL MODERN BUILDINGS, AND YOU'RE TREATING ME LIKE I'M A, YOU KNOW, A HISTORIC LANDMARK. UH, THAT WAS A BIG DEAL. AND SO WE'RE TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO RESPOND TO THAT AND GIVE YOU THE ABILITY TO, TO, TO THINK DIFFERENTLY AND APPLY YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS DIFFERENTLY FOR THOSE. AND YOU DO THE TRUE LANDMARK BUILDINGS. I KNOW YOU'RE SMILING. THE, THE DEVIL IS INTO DETAIL. I UNDERSTAND THAT. UM, BUT WE'RE TRYING TO BE RESPONSIVE TO WHAT, TO WHAT WE HEARD. NO, I, I, AND, AND PERSONALLY, I, I THINK THE IDEA IS GOOD, BUT HOW YOU, HOW YOU ACTUALLY INCORPORATE IT AND STILL MAKE SURE THOSE THINGS ARE ADDRESSED. RIGHT. BECAUSE I THINK THEY STILL NEED TO BE ADDRESSED, BUT MAYBE IN A LESS, UH, LITERAL, LITERAL WAY. YEAH. YEAH. YEAH. AND I THINK, I THINK THAT THE IDEA THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS NOT UNLIKE WHAT YOU SEE IN SOME NON HISTORIC DISTRICTS THAT ARE STILL CONSIDERED TO BE SPECIAL DISTRICTS, RIGHT? LIKE MODERN COMMERCE CENTERS. IT'S NOT THAT PEOPLE AREN'T WORRIED ABOUT ARCHITECTURE, IT'S JUST THAT THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY WORRIED ABOUT THE SAME KIND OF ARCHITECTURE THAT YOU WOULD BE LOOKING AT ON A LANDMARK BUILDING. SO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS NOT UNLIKE THE WAY THIS CITY HAS DONE A LOT OF PLAN DEVELOPMENTS OVER THE YEARS, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE BOARD, THE PLANNING COMMISSION LOOKS AT ARCHITECTURE AS PART OF THAT, BUT IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT LENS OF LOOKING AT ARCHITECTURE THAN IT IS THROUGH THE PURE LANDMARK BUILDING KIND OF LENS. SO YEAH, FOR ME, I THINK I'M NOT, I I SOUND LIKE I'M TRYING TO TALK INTO THAT. I'M NOT, IT'S REALLY UP FOR YOU TO DECIDE IF THAT'S THE DIRECTION YOU WANT TO TAKE WITH THIS. I MEAN, I THINK WE GOTTA FIND SOME WAY TO ADAPT. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT, I MEAN, THE WORDSMITHING, I THINK TO GARY'S POINT, 'CAUSE SOMEHOW YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CONTEXTUAL WAY ALSO TO HAVE AN OFF FRAME THAT SAYS, OKAY, THAT SOMEHOW DOESN'T WORK. RIGHT. AND AR AND WE CAN SAY, OKAY, HERE'S SOME FRAMEWORK OF WHY WE SAY IT DOESN'T WORK, RIGHT? AND WE WANNA MAKE SURE WE DON'T GET CAUGHT IN. THIS IS WHERE THE PUBLIC COMES, SAYS IT'S, SOMETIMES IT FILLS CAPRICIOUS A LITTLE ARBITRARY. AND THEN ON THE BACKGROUND BUILDING, IT'S OKAY. SO WE GOTTA FIND WAYS TO MANAGE THE EXPECTATION. IT HAS TO, AS GARY SAID, THE ARCHITECTURE STILL HAS TO FIT WITH HOW IT LOOKS THERE, BUT MAYBE THERE'S SOME WAY TO HELP THEM FIND A WAY TO DO IT IN A, I WOULDN'T SAY LESS RIGOROUS, RIGHT? IT NEEDS TO BE RIGOROUS, BUT HOW DO THEY DO THIS IN A WAY THAT SEEMS MORE STRAIGHTFORWARD AND SEAMLESS AND PUTS A CHALLENGE ON YOU TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW THAT LOOKS ON PAPER? AND, BUT I, I THINK FOR ME, AND I THINK TRYING TO FIND THAT WAY FORWARD, I THINK IS, AS GARY SAID, I THINK IT'S THE RIGHT WAY. IT'S GOTTA FIND A GOOD WAY TO DO, IT'LL GIVE IT A SHOT. YEAH. MICHAEL, MARTY, LAURIE. NO, I, NO, I, I, I STILL THINK IT'S GONNA BE CHALLENGING TO, HOW DO YOU, HOW DO YOU PUT THAT IN, IN WORDS OF HOW THAT'S GONNA BE REVIEWED? IT'S MORE OF LIKE, WHAT OUR LENS IS, IS HOW ARE WE LOOKING AT IT TOO. I THINK IT'S MORE OF LIKE, ARE WE UNDERSTAND THIS IS A BACKGROUND BUILDING AND, AND WHAT'S OUR LENS LOOK LIKE WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THAT BUILDING? SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS PERCEPTION OF WHAT THEY FELT, THAT WE WEREN'T ABLE TO LOOK AT THOSE TYPE OF BUILDINGS IN A DIFFERENT WAY. THAT'S A, THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT. YEAH. AND, AND, AND I THINK, YES. SO IN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION, YES, I SUPPORT THE MINOR EDITS. I'M NOT APPROVING THEM TONIGHT. , I WANNA SEE THE LANGUAGE. THAT'S OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE. I THINK THAT'S THE UPSHOT. , UM, ANY, ANYTHING ELSE ON THAT? 'CAUSE I THINK THAT THAT'S OUR LIST. I THINK MICHAEL MAKES A GREAT POINT THOUGH, BECAUSE I THINK AT SOME POINT WHEN THIS IS DRAFTED, THERE'S GONNA NEED TO BE SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW ACTUALLY IT APPLIES. IF YOU DO COME UP WITH, SAY, A SECOND SET OF STANDARDS HERE FOR LANDMARK BUILDINGS, UH, I THINK BEFORE IT, IT'S EVEN ADOPTED TO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE FEASIBILITY. AND THEN IS IT SOMETHING A BOARD, [01:15:01] A BOARD CAN, CAN WORK WITH? SO I THINK THAT'S, THAT'S GONNA BE IMPORTANT. YEAH. AND THAT, AND, AND AGAIN, I, I'LL JUST BE PERFECTLY HONEST WITH YOU. I MEAN, THAT IS AN OPTION, RIGHT? IF YOU WERE STARTING FROM SCRATCH, YOU MIGHT WRITE AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF GUIDELINES FOR BACKGROUND BUILDINGS. BUT I THINK THE SENSE WAS FROM STAFF IN PARTICULAR WAS WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE ANOTHER YEAR DOING THIS BECAUSE THAT'S A BIG DEAL. SO WE'RE GONNA TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MICRO EDIT THIS MAYBE WITH SOME, MAYBE WITH A NEW SECTION HERE AND THERE. MAYBE THERE'S SOME LANGUAGE IN THE PURPOSE STATEMENTS. MAYBE THERE'S SOME LANGUAGE IN THE BACKGROUND STATEMENTS. MAYBE IT'S SPRINKLED THROUGHOUT. UH, IT'S JUST, IT'S A, IT'S, IT IS AS MUCH, FRANKLY, A MINDSET AS IT IS ANYTHING ELSE. BUT IT'LL HELP NOT JUST THE BOARD, BUT IT'LL HELP THE RESIDENTS TOO. UM, SO I THINK IF IT DID REQUIRE MORE EFFORT, IT WOULD PROB PROBABLY BE WORTHWHILE. ALRIGHT. UM, I THINK WE'VE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT FOUR, HAVEN'T WE? YES. ON THIS LIST? YES. OKAY. THAT'S ALL I HAVE. YOU SHOULD THANK SARAH FOR CALLING THE SPECIAL MEETING. YEAH. BECAUSE IF WE'D HAVE WAITED AND HAD YOU ON THE AGENDA LAST MONTH, YOU WOULD'VE BEEN STARTING AT 10 O'CLOCK. . . NO, THAT WAS ACTUALLY, THAT WAS VERY HELPFUL. THAT WAS A GOOD DISCUSSION. I APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHTS. IT GAVE ME SOME OTHER THINGS TO THINK ABOUT AS WE START ON THIS. AND I WOULDN'T RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THIS, SO I DON'T WANT TO GET SIDEWAYS. BUT IT WOULDN'T RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT WE BRING, COME BACK FOR AN INTERIM DISCUSSION ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES, UH, AS OPPOSED TO FINAL LANGUAGE. I MEAN, THIS ISSUE IN PARTICULAR, THIS NUMBER THREE, UM, IS, IS GONNA BE KEY. I MEAN, THE REST OF IT I THINK IS PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD. NUMBER THREE IS GONNA BE, IS GONNA BE TRICKY. YOU KNOW, I THINK AN IMPORTANT POINT TO BE MADE WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU GO AND TALK TO RESIDENTS IS THIS IS NOTHING MORE THAN HOA GUIDELINES AND DUBLIN, UNLIKE, UNLIKE, UM, OTHER COMMUNITIES IN CENTRAL OHIO, LIKE ARLINGTON, THE MAJORITY OF, IT'S NOT THE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION, BUT OUR COMMUNITY, EVERYBODY HAS GUIDELINES. ONE OF OUR, WE'VE BEEN TOLD ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT HAS A THOUSAND PAGE GUIDELINES. SO IT'S NOT LIKE, UM, WE'RE ASKING PEOPLE TO DO OR COMPLY WITH SOMETHING THAT THE REST OF THE PEOPLE IN DUBLIN AREN'T COMPLYING WITH EITHER. SO I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT TO BE MADE BECAUSE THERE'S, I KNOW WE, WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT THE BAD THINGS WE DO, BUT , BUT WHEN I LOOK AT THE SEVEN YEARS I'VE BEEN ON THIS BOARD AND I LOOK AT HOW WELL A LOT OF THE THINGS FIT IN. UM, YOU DON'T SEE BUILDINGS LIKE THE LIBRARY, AND YET IN OTHER PARTS OF DUBLIN, THERE ARE VERY CONTEMPORARY HOMES, NEW HOMES BEING BUILT AS CUSTOM HOMES. UM, YOU DON'T SEE HOMES LIKE YOU SEE IN THE ESTATES IN YOUR FIELD, UM, WHICH ARE APPROPRIATE THERE, BUT WOULDN'T BE APPROPRIATE. SO EVEN, EVEN THOUGH THERE MAY BE A COUPLE HOUSES THAT ARE BIGGER THAN MAYBE THEY COULD HAVE BEEN, THEY STILL FIT IN PRETTY WELL. SO IT'S NOT LIKE , I THINK SOMETIMES THERE'S NOT ENOUGH PROMOTION OF THE BENEFITS OF ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW. BUT ENOUGH SAID . YES, SIR. OKAY. ALRIGHT. I, I DID. BECAUSE WE HAVE OTHER CONSIDER, I DO HAVE ONE MORE JUST, IT SITS INSIDE HERE AND IT'S, IT'S WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER. SO JUST, IT'S IN THE CODE THAT, AND AS I WAS READING THROUGH IT, SOMETIMES YOU READ THROUGH THE THING AND IT WAS IN THE CONCEPT PLAN. AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT CONCEPT, IT'S JUST SOMETHING MAYBE WE HAVE TO ADDRESS. AND IT, IT, IT RE ON THE PURPOSE OF THE CONCEPT PLAN, IT TALKS ABOUT THE CONSISTENCY IN THE COMMUNITY PLAN, STORY GUIDELINES, ALL THESE THINGS. AND YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT WHERE DOES THE INTERIM LAND USE PRINCIPLE COME IN? AND THIS IS ONE OF THESE YOU TALK, 'CAUSE I WAS STILL, AS TIME GOES ON, IT SITS INSIDE OF THERE AS A, I'M NOT SURE WHAT IT'S, IT'S INTERIM, RIGHT? SO THAT'S ONE THING. SO WILL IT GO AWAY OR WILL IT BE REPLACED? JENNY, MAYBE YOUR . AND HERE COMES, JENNY, YOU HAD TO COME TO THE MEETING SO WE COULD, UH, CALL YOU UP. 'CAUSE IT WAS A BIT FOR ME. WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT WE, WHAT WE REVIEW TO ENSURE THAT WE'RE COMPLYING, IT DOESN'T, IT DOESN'T SIT IN THERE. AND THEN FOR ME IT'S A LITTLE, WILL IT GO AWAY AND ONLY COMMUNITY PLAN, JUST WHERE WILL IT FIT LONG TERM. JUST GREAT QUESTION AS AS, AS A DOCUMENT TO USE. YEAH. YEAH. SO AGAIN, THE GOAL FOR THOSE INTERIM LAND USE PRINCIPLES, AS YOU INDICATED, WAS TO REALLY SORT OF HELP TIDE US OVER BETWEEN THE EXISTING PLAN AND THE NEW PLAN ADOPTED. SO, UM, THOSE, A LOT OF THOSE, UM, PRINCIPLES ARE GETTING FOLDED INTO THE PLAN IN A MORE ROBUST WAY. SO, UM, THOSE WOULD GO AWAY AS SORT OF, IT'S, THEY JUST SORT OF GET EMBEDDED IN THE PLAN, UM, AS PART OF THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS AS THAT MOVES FORWARD. SO AGAIN, IT'S MEANT TO BE ONE PIECE OF THE LARGER PUZZLE, RIGHT? SO IT'S ALL PLANS AND POLICIES. SO THAT'S WHY THAT'S INCLUDED FOR NOW. SO YEAH, GOOD QUESTION. OKAY. SO I MEAN, AS TIME GOES [01:20:01] ON, AS WE REWRITE THE CODE, IT'LL BE INTERIM, IT WON'T SIT IN HERE AND IT, WHEN IT COMES AND GOES, IT'LL BE MORE OF A ADMINISTRATIVE FROM THE CITY COUNCIL. USE THIS TILL WE GET THE NEXT THING IN PLACE AND MOVING FORWARD. MM-HMM, CLEAR. OKAY. ALRIGHT. DISCUSSION ITEMS ARE NEXT, RIGHT? UM, PUBLIC COMMENT, ACTUALLY I HAVE PUBLIC COMMENT. UM, AND THIS IS RELATED TO THE CODE AND GUIDELINES. IT'S FROM DAVID VINNY AT 56 SOUTH RIVERVIEW STREET. UM, GOOD EVENING BOARD MEMBERS. I'M A RESIDENT OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT RESIDING ON SOUTH RIVERVIEW. I HAVE SUGGESTIONS AND QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE HISTORIC DISTRICT CODE AND GUIDELINES UPDATE. FIRST, I RECOMMEND THAT GAS LAMPS BE PROHIBITED UNDER ALL FUTURE USE CASES FOR FAILING TO MEET THE REQUIRED EFFICIENCY STANDARDS OF TABLE 1 53 0.173 I AS LISTED IN SECTION 1 53 0.172 J. WHILE VISUALLY BEAUTIFUL, THESE FIXTURES ARE INCREDIBLY INEFFICIENT AT LIGHT PRODUCTION. AND IF DUBLIN IS SERIOUS ABOUT SUSTAINABILITY, SHOULD NOT BE PERMITTED IN ANY SETTING, BE IT COMMERCIAL OR RESIDENTIAL COMPANIES SUCH AS AMERICAN GAS LAMP WORKS HAVE DEVELOPED EFFICIENT LED ALTERNATIVES THAT REPLICATE THE APPEARANCE AND INTENSITY OF GAS MANTLE LIGHTING FOR THOSE THAT DESIRE THE AESTHETIC. SECOND, I RECOMMEND THE ADDITION OF A SECTION IN THE CODE COVERING SURVEILLANCE DEVICES. SECURITY CAMERAS ARE MODERN UBIQUITY, BUT HOW SHOULD THEY BEST BE HANDLED IN A HISTORIC DISTRICT? FOR EXAMPLE, CAN CAMERAS BE PROMINENTLY INSTALLED DIRECTLY TO THE FACADE OF HISTORIC STRUCTURES SUCH AS THE THREE CAMERAS MOUNTED TO DUBLIN BRIDGE AT THE RIVER LEVEL OF DUBLIN SPRINGS PARK? DO WE WANNA FURTHER DRAW ATTENTION TO THE CAMERAS BY POSTING WARNING SIGNS OF THEIR USAGE? FINALLY, THE PRE-APPROVED PAINT COLOR STANDARDS ARE NOT EQUITABLE AND SHOULD BE REVISED. THE HISTORIC PAINT COLORS DOCUMENT SHOWS FIVE ERAS POSSESSING A PRE-APPROVED COLOR LIST RANGING FROM 53 TO 122 COLOR OPTIONS. THE OTHER, OUR 1941 TO 1990 ERA HAS SEVEN PRE-APPROVED CHOICES. IT WOULD BE WELCOME TO HAVE THIS INCREASE TO BE MORE IN LINE WITH THE OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO OTHER HOMES IN THE DISTRICT. AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, ATTENTION, AND SERVICE BEST. DAVID VINNY, UM, ARE THOSE ONE OF THOSE MAYBE A ZONING ISSUE? THE QUESTION OF THE CAM ZONING AND PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE? THAT, THAT CAMERA QUESTION IS THAT BEYOND US, WE BELIEVE IT'S BEYOND THIS GROUP. WE FEEL IT'S BEYOND STAFF. THIS IS PERSONAL CHOICE AND SECURITY. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WE WANNA GET INVOLVED IN REVIEWING. UM, WELL, I WASN'T SUGGESTING THAT. I WAS WONDERING WHAT'S THE VE WHAT'S THE AVENUE FOR THAT PERSON TO PURSUE? IS IT TO TALK TO COUNSEL? AND, AND IT BECOMES, UM, IT'S NOT REALLY A MODIFICATION TO A BUILDING PER SE. IT'S, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS, RIGHT? IT'S A, IT'S A TEMPORARY INSTALLATION. UM, MUCH LIKE, YOU KNOW, A DISH TV RECEIVER OR SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, MAY COME AND GO. UM, WE DON'T SEE THAT AS BEING WITHIN OUR PURVIEW. OKAY. NO, I DON'T, I DON'T EITHER. I JUST WONDER WHAT, EXCEPT THAT I SEE IT AS VERY SIMILAR TO A LAMP. AND YOU'VE BEEN APPROVING, WE'VE BEEN APPROVING LAMPS, LIGHT FIXTURES, LIGHT FIXTURES, WALL SCONCES. AND TO ME IT'S THE SAME THING. WE CAN CERTAINLY CONSIDER THIS AND, AND VET THIS A LITTLE BIT MORE AND PROVIDE YOU WITH SOME RESPONSES. UM, I DO THINK THAT THERE'S A, A GOOD POINT TO BE MADE ABOUT THE NUMBER OF PRE-APPROVED PAINT COLORS. WE'VE GOT SOME IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THAT. UM, THE PRE-APPROVED PAINT COLOR DOCUMENT IS NOT A PART OF THE CODE OR THE GUIDELINES. IT'S A SEPARATE DOCUMENT IN AND OF ITSELF. SO THERE'S A COUPLE DIFFERENT WAYS WITHOUT GOING DOWN A BIG RABBIT HOLE HERE. UM, BUT WE [01:25:01] CAN EITHER AMEND THAT DOCUMENT OR WE CAN LOOK TO SOMEHOW FOLD BACKGROUND PAINT COLORS, BACKGROUND BUILDING PAINT COLORS INTO THE ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVALS. YEAH, THE CAMERAS I JUST BROUGHT UP. 'CAUSE I KNOW THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES ABOUT PRIVACY AND UM, AND THAT'S NOT SOMETHING WE CAN DEAL WITH, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE A HIGHER AUTHORITY WOULD BE THE ONES TO DEAL WITH THAT. YEAH. AND, AND THE ONES ON THE BRIDGE POLICE DEPARTMENT MAY HAVE INSTALLED THOSE. I, I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S, AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW YEAH. PUBLIC, YOU KNOW, PUBLIC SAFETY. SO YEAH. ALRIGHT. JUST WHAT, WHAT WAS THE SECTION ON THE GAS LAMPS, JUST SO I DIDN'T FORGET 1 53. WHAT WAS, WHAT, WHAT SECTION WAS IT IN JUST SO I CAN JUST, SO THE QUESTION WAS REALLY ABOUT, UM, THEIR SUSTAINABILITY RIGHT. AND INEFFICIENCY AND SHOULD WE INCLUDE SOMETHING IN THE CODE LANGUAGE ABOUT THAT? RIGHT. HE CITED A CODE, UH, SOMETHING 1 53 1. HE DID CITE THE CODE 1 73, UH, 1 53 0.172 AND 1 7 3 1 7 2 1 7 3. YEAH, THERE IS A TABLE IN THERE THAT TALKS ABOUT MAXIMUM LIGHT EMISSION FROM EACH FIXTURE OR EACH LAMP WITHIN A FIXTURE. IT'S A LITTLE BIT, IT'S A LITTLE BIT APPLES AND ORANGES ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF LIGHT THAT'S BEING EMITTED VERSUS THE EFFICIENCY OF THE LIGHT THAT'S BEING EMITTED. YEP. OKAY. ALRIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE? OKAY. ALRIGHT. DISCUSSION. YOU HAD RAISED IN THE EMAIL ABOUT MAYBE CHANGING THE DATE OF OUR TOUR. FIRST WE'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM JENNY ROUSH WHO'S GONNA TELL US ABOUT THE COMMUNITY PLAN AND THE HISTORIC DISTRICT SPECIAL AREA PLAN. OKAY. AND THEN WE WILL ABSOLUTELY TALK ABOUT THE TOUR. I NOT TO, UH, I, I GUESS I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THE RESIDENTS HERE DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD TO YOUR PREVIOUS DISCUSSION. SORRY. OKAY. OKAY. NO. OKAY, PERFECT. [HD Special Area Plan] SO, AS SARAH, UM, SHARED, I JUST WANTED TO GIVE AN UPDATE, UM, ON THE COMMUNITY PLAN WHERE WE ARE WITH THINGS. UM, AND GARY SERVES AS ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF OUR STEERING COMMITTEE WHO'S BEEN WITH US THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS. UM, I GAVE A VERY, UH, I PROVIDED A VERY DETAILED MEMO. UM, I'M NOT GONNA GO THROUGH ALL THAT 'CAUSE IT'S A LOT OF DETAIL. UM, BUT I JUST WANTED YOU ALL TO UNDERSTAND SORT OF WHERE WE'VE BEEN. AND I JUST HAVE A COUPLE SLIDES THAT'LL TALK THROUGH THE PROCESS, HOW THAT'S WORKED. BUT I REALLY JUST WANTED TO SHARE, UM, WITH YOU ALL THE SPECIAL AREA PLAN FOR THE HISTORIC DISTRICT AND UNDERSTAND THERE'S, UM, YOU KNOW, ANY OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS. AGAIN, IT'S A WORK IN PROGRESS FOR US TOO. SO YOU'RE SEEING WHAT THE STEERING COMMITTEE SAW AT THE END OF MARCH. SO WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE SOME REVISIONS. UM, AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO DO THAT UNTIL, YOU KNOW, THE PLAN GOES FOR OFFICIAL ADOPTION, BUT I DEFINITELY, IT, IT GOVERNS AREA THAT YOU'RE VERY INTERESTED IN AND WORK WITH, UM, ON A REGULAR BASIS. SO I WANNA, WE WANNA MAKE SURE THAT IT'S HELPFUL TO YOU ALL AND IF THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE WE SHOULD CONSIDER. SO, UM, I HAVE, WE PROVIDED THAT DRAFT IN YOUR PACKET AND I HAVE IT HERE. AND WAS JUST GONNA FLIP THROUGH THAT, UM, A LITTLE BIT JUST TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS, UM, AND FEEDBACK. SO, UM, IF YOU'VE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS PROCESS, UM, THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE END OF DECEMBER OF 2022. SO A LITTLE BIT, UM, CLOSE TO A YEAR AND A HALF LONG PROCESS FOR US AND HAS INVOLVED, UM, A NUMBER OF STAFF GROUPS, WHICH I'LL TALK ABOUT HERE IN A SECOND. BUT A NUMBER OF CONSULTANT LEADS AS WELL, UM, WHICH HAS BEEN REALLY CRITICAL TO THIS. 'CAUSE THIS IS A VERY TECHNICAL, UM, DOCUMENT AND WANTING TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL THE PIECES FIT TOGETHER AND WORK, UM, AS, AS WE'VE GONE THROUGH THAT. SO I JUST WANTED TO SHARE THE, THE DEPTH OF OUR, UM, CONSULTANT SUPPORT ON THIS, UM, TO MAKE THIS DOCUMENT AS REALLY AS ROBUST AS WE CAN. UM, AS PART OF THIS, A LOT OF COLLABORATION WITH CITYWIDE INITIATIVES, UM, THAT ARE EITHER RECENTLY BEEN ADOPTED UNDERWAY, UM, AND AGAIN, HIGHLIGHTING THAT CONSULTANT, UM, COORDINATION. SO OBVIOUSLY WE'VE HAD OUR DUBLIN HOUSING STUDY, UM, PARKS AND REC MASTER PLAN, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, STRATEGIC UPDATE. UM, SO ALL THOSE THREE THINGS HAVE BEEN ADOPTED AND REALLY HELPED TO INFORM A LOT OF PIECES, UM, WITHIN THE DRAFT PLAN AS THAT'S COMING TOGETHER. UM, BUT THEN ALSO LOOKING AT OUR SUSTAINABILITY FRAMEWORK, METRO CENTER, UM, AND THEN OUR WEST PASSENGER RAIL STUDY AND THEN, AND THEN OUR, WHAT WE'RE CALLING OUR EAST BRIDGE STREET CORRIDOR. SO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE BRIDGE STREET, UM, PARTICULARLY FROM THE ROUNDABOUT TO THE EAST, UM, AND WHAT THAT CORRIDOR IS GONNA LOOK LIKE, PARTICULARLY GIVEN LINK US AND THINGS THAT CODA IS CONSIDERING. SO HOW DO [01:30:01] WE ACCOUNT FOR THAT? UM, AND SO ANOTHER IMPORTANT PART OF THIS, UM, WHEN I TALK ABOUT CONSULTANTS AND STAFF COORDINATION, IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST A LAND USE PLAN THAT'S MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT WHAT USES ARE. IT'S MAKING SURE THAT, DO WE HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE FROM A MOBILITY AND TRANSPORTATION NETWORK TO SUPPORT THAT? SO WE MODEL THAT, UM, TRAVEL DEMAND MODEL, UM, HAS BEEN DONE FOR THAT TO SHOW, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE, WHERE ARE OUR STRESS LINKS? WHAT DO WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT? DO WE NEED ADDITIONAL CONNECTIONS? DO WE NEED RIGHT OR WIDER RIGHT OF WAYS? UM, YOU KNOW, WHAT, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE? AND NOT JUST FOR VEHICLES, HOW DOES THE PEDESTRIAN ENVIRONMENT, UM, FIT INTO THIS? AND MAKING SURE THAT WALKERS AND ROLLERS CAN, CAN GET WHERE THEY WANNA BE AND, AND HELPING TO PRIORITIZE THAT. UM, SAME GOES FOR UTILITIES. UM, MAKING SURE THAT OUR WATER AND SEWER SERVICE CAN ADEQUATELY, UM, SERVE THOSE LAND USES, UM, PARTICULARLY IN OUR AREAS WHERE WE HAVE OPPORTUNITIES FOR NEW DEVELOPMENT. UM, AND THEN FISCAL MODELING. SO FROM A CITY STANDPOINT, IS THIS FISCALLY SUSTAINABLE, RIGHT? CAN WE BUILD ALL THIS AND STILL BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THE LEVEL OF SERVICE THAT THE CITY AND OUR RESIDENTS ARE USED TO? SO, UM, THAT'S BEEN PART OF THIS PROCESS AND REALLY HELP TO DRIVE OUR CONVERSATIONS, UM, AT THAT STEERING COMMITTEE LEVEL. UM, SO AS I MENTIONED, WE HAVE 20 MEMBERS ON OUR STEERING COMMITTEE AND THAT HAS BEEN, UH, MADE UP OF, WE HAVE CITY COUNCIL PLANNING COMMISSION, ARCHITECTURE REVIEW BOARD REPRESENTATIVES, UM, MYSELF AND OUR CITY MANAGER, UM, FROM A STAFF PERSPECTIVE SIT ON THAT STEERING COMMITTEE AS WELL AS IN DUBLIN CITY SCHOOL REPRESENTATIVES, HISTORIC DISTRICT, UM, RESIDENT, TWO MEMBERS AT LARGE, UM, FROM A RESIDENTIAL STANDPOINT. AND THEN WE HAVE, UM, DEVELOPER, UM, COMMERCIAL DEVELOPER, UM, AND THEN SOME OF OUR MAJOR, UM, BUSINESS EMPLOYER, SO CARDINAL HEALTH, UM, AND OHIO HEALTH, BOTH HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE ON THERE AS WELL AS THEN MEMBERS FROM OUR, UM, COMMUNITY INCLUSION ADVISORY AND OUR COMMUNITY SERVICES GROUP. SO WE HAVE A REALLY, A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS. WE HAVE A GOOD MIX OF, UM, REPRESENTATION ON THAT STEERING COMMITTEE, WHICH HAS BEEN REALLY GREAT FOR OUR CONVERSATIONS 'CAUSE IT BRINGS A LOT OF PERSPECTIVE. UM, SO THAT GROUP HAS MET SO FAR SEVEN TIMES. THEIR LAST MEETING HERE IS AT THE END OF THE MONTH. SO, UM, THEIR WORK WILL BE CONCLUDED, HAVING MET ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS AND SPENT MANY HOURS, UM, TALKING THROUGH AND MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THIS FINAL PLAN THAT WE'RE, UM, PUTTING TOGETHER FOR THEM. SO THEY REALLY ARE SORT OF HELPING US SHEPHERD THIS THROUGH THE PROCESS, UM, AND REALLY BEING THE FACE OF, OF THIS PLANNING PROCESS. UM, SO AS I MENTIONED THIS, THE TIMELINE FOR THIS HAS BEEN, UM, AT THIS POINT A LITTLE BIT OVER A YEAR. UM, THE PLAN HAS, HAS EIGHT TOTAL TASKS IN IT. UM, AND THIS JUST GIVES YOU A SENSE OF THE TIMELINE FOR THAT. SO WE ARE AT THE VERY END BOX, THE DRAFT AND FINAL PLAN. SO, UM, FOR THE STEERING COMMITTEE FOR APRIL, THEY'RE GONNA GET A FULL DRAFT PLAN, UM, WHICH IS PRETTY AMAZING 'CAUSE AND IT LOOKS REALLY NICE. UM, SO, UM, IT'S ALL, IT'S COMING TOGETHER VERY NICELY BASED ON ALL THE WORK THAT WE'VE DONE SO FAR. SO, BUT AS PART OF THAT, ONE OF THE, UM, KEY COMPONENTS ARE OUR SPECIAL AREA PLANS, UM, WHICH OVERALL THE COMMUNITY PLAN IS LOOKING AT. THESE ARE OUR PLANNING AREA BOUNDARIES. SO YOU SEE RIGHT WHERE THE CITY IS SORT OF THAT LIGHTER GREEN AND THEN LOOKING AT AND PLANNING FOR HOW DOES THIS, UM, IMPACT SURROUNDING PROPERTIES TO THE WEST. LOOKING AT THOSE POTENTIAL GROWTH AREAS, NOT NECESSARILY THAT WE'RE GOING TO ANNEX OR, OR DO THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT REALLY TO HELP INFORM THE LAND USE AND WHAT'S COMPATIBLE AND WORK TOGETHER WITH OUR REGIONAL PARTNERS. A LOT OF THE, UM, ENTITIES THAT ARE ON OUR WESTERN AND NORTHERN BORDERS ARE ALSO DOING COMMUNITY PLAN PROCESSES. SO THE TIMING IS, UM, YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN SHARING A LOT OF INFORMATION BACK AND FORTH AND ENGAGING WITH THEM. SO WE'RE REALLY BUILDING ON OUR, THE LAST TIME WE UPDATED THE PLAN WAS IN 2013. SO, UM, THIS WAS A REALLY GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO LOOK AT THIS HOLISTICALLY. UM, SO WITH THAT, THE STEERING COMMITTEE, AS PART OF THEIR WORK, UM, HAS DEVELOPED THIS PREFERRED LAND USE SCENARIO. SO ALL THOSE THINGS I MENTIONED IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE THE LAND USES, UTILITIES, TRANSPORTATION NETWORK, FISCAL MODELING IS ALL SUPPORTED WITH THEN THIS PREFERRED LAND USE PLAN. UM, SO PARTICULAR FOR THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, UM, THAT HAS A FUTURE LAND USE DESIGNATION OF MIXED USE VILLAGE. UM, THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE IN THE CITY WHERE THAT FUTURE LAND USE EXISTS. UM, AGAIN, TO ENSURE THAT THE CHARACTER OF THAT AREA IS MAINTAINED. SO IT PER PERMITS OR RECOMMENDS, UM, YOU KNOW, VARIETY OF USES. UM, BUT REALLY THAT VILLAGE SCALE THAT'S INDICATIVE OF OUR HISTORIC DISTRICT. SO AGAIN, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE CITY HOLISTICALLY. UM, BUT WE DO THEN HAVE, UM, SIX SPECIAL AREA PLANS IN THE CITY. UM, PREVIOUSLY WE HAD NINE. UM, WE HAVE MADE SOME MODIFICATIONS, SOME, UM, BASED ON DEVELOPMENT, DON'T NEED THAT SORT OF LEVEL OF ATTENTION, UM, THAT, THAT WE FEEL THAT THESE SIX IN PARTICULAR DO. SO THE HISTORIC DISTRICT IS ONE OF THOSE, UM, PREVIOUSLY THAT WAS SORT OF EMBEDDED. IT WAS ITS OWN, THEN IT WAS EMBEDDED WITHIN THE BRIDGE [01:35:01] STREET DISTRICT. AND THEN, UM, COUNCIL'S DIRECTION HAS BEEN FOR THAT TO COME OUT, UM, OF THE BRIDGE STREET SPECIAL AREA PLAN AND BE ITS OWN, UH, BE ITS OWN SPECIAL AREA PLAN. SO THIS REALLY HELPS US HAVE SPECIFIC OBJECTIVES AND DESIGN RECOMMENDATIONS, UM, AND REALLY HELPS TO INFORM, YOU KNOW, LAND USE DECISIONS EVEN FROM A CITY PERSPECTIVE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, INITIATIVES AND THINGS THAT WE WOULD WANNA SEE HAPPEN, UM, WITHIN THAT AREA. SO, UM, THIS IS JUST A QUICK ILLUSTRATIVE OR SNAPSHOT OF ONE OF THE PIECES OF THAT SPECIAL AREA PLAN. AND THEN I'M GONNA, I CAN OPEN UP THE PDF AND WE CAN SORT OF WALK THROUGH, UM, WHAT'S INCLUDED. BUT THIS REALLY, UM, IS WHAT I KNOW A LOT OF STAFF LOOKS AT DEVELOPERS, UM, RESIDENTS AS THEY'RE, UM, LOOKING AT THESE, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE THESE KEY COMPONENTS. SO AGAIN, THERE ARE SOME MODIFICATIONS THAT WE'RE WORKING THROUGH TO HELP CLARIFY, UM, THE LANGUAGE UPDATE. SOME OF THE EXISTING BUILDING FOOTPRINTS AREN'T UP TO DATE. SO SOME OF THOSE THINGS NEED A LITTLE QUICK COMMODIFICATION, BUT REALLY LOOKING AT, RIGHT, LIKE WHERE ARE THE GATEWAY FEATURES, WHERE SHOULD WE BE LOOKING AT STREETSCAPE IMPROVEMENTS, UM, YOU KNOW, WHERE ARE SOME SITE OPPORTUNITIES FOR REDEVELOPMENT OR INFILL DEVELOPMENT? UM, WE'RE, WE ARE SHOWING, SO THE AREAS THAT HAVE THE HATCHES OVER THEM, THOSE ARE AREAS THAT ARE ADJACENT TO THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, BUT NOT WITHIN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, RIGHT? SO MONTEREY, UM, WE'RE SHOWING THAT JUST BECAUSE THAT IS RELEVANT TO THE HISTORIC DISTRICT IN TERMS OF, UM, YOU KNOW, WHAT, HOW THAT COULD IMPACT, UM, YOU KNOW, AS YOU TRANSITION IN AND OUT OF THE DISTRICT. SAME WITH THE LIBRARY AND BRIDGE PARK AND PLAZA DEVELOPMENT THAT ARE SORT OF ON THE NORTHERN END OF THE DISTRICT. THEY RE THEY RELATE, UM, THEY'RE ALSO COVERED WITHIN THAT BRIDGE STREET DISTRICT PLAN. UM, SO I'LL, I'LL GO THROUGH THAT A LITTLE MORE DETAIL AND DEFINITELY WANT YOUR FEEDBACK IF THERE'S OTHER THINGS TO CONSIDER. UM, BUT JUST IN TERMS OF PROCESS, UM, IN APRIL THEN WE'VE HAD, UM, AN AVISION DUBLIN PUBLIC MEETING. SO WE HAD A MEETING AT, UM, TWO WEEKS AGO, A WEEK AGO, UM, TO LOOK AT ALL THE SPECIAL AREA PLANS AND GET PUBLIC COMMENT ON THAT. SO, UM, WE HAD THAT OPPORTUNITY SO THE PUBLIC SAW THIS AND HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO COME AND IT'S ALSO, UM, ONLINE SO PEOPLE COULD MAKE ADDITIONAL COMMENTS IF THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO ATTEND. UM, AND THEN I WAS AT PLANNING COMMISSION LAST WEEK AND DID A DEEPER DIVE INTO THE WHOLE PROCESS, UM, AND TALKING THROUGH THAT 'CAUSE BECAUSE THEY HAVE, UM, THEY'LL HAVE TO SEE THE WHOLE PLAN AND MAKE THAT RECOMMENDATION TO, TO COUNCIL, UM, FOR ADOPTION. SO WE WANTED THEM TO HAVE, UM, SOME FAMILIARITY WITH THAT AS WELL. SO THEN I'M HERE TONIGHT. UM, AND THEN AS I MENTIONED, THE STEERING COMMITTEE HAS THEIR FINAL MEETING HERE ON THE 30TH. UM, AND OUR HOPE IS TO THEN BE, UM, TO PLANNING COMMISSION AT THAT MAY 23RD MEETING FOR THEM TO, UM, REVIEW AND POTENTIALLY MAKE RECOMMENDATION TO COUNSEL, UM, ON THAT. SO DO YOU HAVE ANY OVERARCHING QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT I TALKED ABOUT? HAPPY TO ANSWER THOSE. IF NOT, I CAN JUST FLIP THROUGH THE DOCUMENT THAT WE PROVIDED AND ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. SO, OKAY. SO IN EACH OF THE SPECIAL AREA PLANS, AND AGAIN, I'M NOT GONNA NECESSARILY GO THROUGH ALL THE DETAILS UNLESS YOU REALLY WANT TO, UM, OR HAVE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS, BUT EACH AREA PLAN REALLY ALL INCLUDES SIMILAR THINGS. SO THAT PLANNING CONTEXT, RIGHT? WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT? WHAT ARE THE KEY FACTORS THAT HAVE GONE INTO, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'RE FOCUSING ON? UM, WHAT, WHAT ARE THOSE COMPONENTS THAT WE NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT RIGHT AS WE'RE PLANNING FOR THIS AREA. UM, AND THEN THEY GO INTO AREA RECOMMENDATIONS. SO LARGER RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE WHOLE DISTRICT. SO OBVIOUSLY FOR THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, RIGHT? PRESERVATION SCALE OF DEVELOPMENT, UM, WHAT WE'RE DOING ON SOUTH HIGH STREET, MAKING SURE THAT THAT'S REMAINS A VITAL, UH, OR EXCUSE ME, A VIBRANT AREA. UM, AND, AND RECOMMENDATIONS AGAIN THAT'S ARE ASSOCIATED THAT CAN BE, UM, APPLIED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE DISTRICT. UM, SO AGAIN, WE HAVE SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THOSE. A LOT OF THESE, UM, WERE DEVELOPED AS PART OF, SOME OF YOU MAY REMEMBER THE HISTORIC DISTRICT TASK FORCE EFFORT THAT WAS DONE A COUPLE YEARS AGO. UM, THEY HAD PROVIDED A LOT OF RECOMMENDATIONS AS PART OF THAT. SO THAT'S WHERE A, A MAJORITY OF THIS IS COMING FROM, UM, BASED ON THAT INITIATIVE THAT COUNCIL, UM, ACCEPTED A COUPLE YEARS AGO. BUT WE'VE OBVIOUSLY GONE BACK AND MADE UPDATES 'CAUSE SOME THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE, UM, AND ADDED SOME ADDITIONAL AREAS, UM, INCLUDING LIKE THE MICRO MOBILITY, UM, AND THOSE MOBILITY CORRIDORS. THAT'S AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS TOO. UM, SO AGAIN, DEFINITELY INTERESTED IF YOU THINK THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FROM AN AREA WIDE RECOMMENDATIONS. UM, WE THEN ALSO INCLUDE WITHIN EACH OF THE SPECIAL AREA PLANS, SORT OF KEY SITES AND OPPORTUNITIES. SO IF THERE'S PARTICULAR PROPERTIES OR AREAS THAT WE WOULD WANNA SEE REDEVELOPMENT OR WE KNOW WE'VE HEARD, YOU KNOW, OVER THE YEARS, YOU KNOW, SUCH AS LIKE 55 SOUTH HIGH STREET, PERFECTLY FINE BEING THERE AS IT IS NOW, BUT IF SOMETHING [01:40:01] REDEVELOPS, WHAT WOULD WE LIKE TO SEE THERE? UM, AND THIS WOULD HELP THEN PROVIDE GUIDANCE FOR SOMEONE COMING FORWARD OF THIS IS WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR OR, UM, YOU KNOW, THE NORTH RIVER VIEW AREA, WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE THAT'S OBVIOUSLY VERY RELEVANT. UM, OR RIVERSIDE CROSSING PARK WEST. SO THE PARK PIECE OF THAT AND WHAT'S, UM, THE CITY'S INTENT, WHAT DO WE WANNA SEE THERE? UM, SO THOSE EXAMPLES, UM, ARE INCLUDED IN HERE, UM, AS WELL. AND THEN THAT GETS INTO, UM, SORT OF THE DESIGN RECOMMENDATIONS THAT I MENTIONED AND THEN THE ILLUSTRATIVE PLAN. SO EACH AREA PLAN AGAIN, SORT OF FOLLOWS THE SAME FORMAT. SOME HAVE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT LEVEL OF DETAIL DEPENDING ON, YOU KNOW, WHERE IT IS IN THE CITY. BUT, UM, THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, SINCE IT EXISTED BEFORE, THAT WAS VERY, UM, HELPFUL FOR US TO LOOK AT AND UNDERSTAND WHAT PREVIOUS RECOMMENDATIONS WERE. A NUMBER OF THE ONES THAT ARE INCLUDED ON HERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE STILL WERE RELEVANT THEN AND ARE STILL RELEVANT NOW. UM, SO WANTING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE RETAINING THOSE. SO, UM, AGAIN, HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS OR AGAIN, IF THERE'S THINGS THAT COME TO MIND THAT, OH, WE SHOULD CONSIDER THIS OR I'M HAPPY TO, UM, YOU KNOW, TAKE THAT FEEDBACK AND THEN IF THERE'S, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING WE NEED TO TALK TO THE STEERING COMMITTEE ABOUT OR COULD INCLUDE OR SHOULD INCLUDE, HAPPY TO RAISE THAT, UM, RAISE THAT AS PART OF IT. SO THAT'S ALL I HAVE. JUST UP TO YOU, JENNY. I HAVE HAD A QUESTION WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT IT, I WAS KIND OF CURIOUS AND SINCE THEY GAVE THIS AT THE AF AT THE END OF THE MEETING, WE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE A CHANCE TO TALK WHY THEY DECIDED THERE WOULD BE TWO GATEWAYS INTO THE HISTORIC DISTRICT INSTEAD OF MARKING, YOU KNOW, ONE TIME WE HAD FOUR OB QUES THAT, UH, MARKED WHERE THE DISTRICT STARTED AND THEIR PLAN, I THINK IT'S NOTE 17 JUST SHOWS A COUPLE, COUPLE GATEWAYS, BUT PARTICULARLY ON, YOU KNOW, THE WEST, THE WEST END WHERE, WHERE OUR DISTRICT WHERE THE REAL BOUNDARY OF OUR DISTRICT IS, IS A LITTLE, IT'S NOT VERY CLEAR. SO YEAH, I'M JUST, I'M NOT, IT'S NOT A CRITICISM, IT'S JUST THESE PEOPLE ARE VERY GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO. I'M JUST CURIOUS WHY THEY DON'T HAVE 'EM IN THE OTHER LOCATIONS. YES. SO AGAIN, ON HERE, UM, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE'VE NOTED AS STAFF THAT NEEDS TO BE HIGHLIGHTED A LITTLE BIT FURTHER. OKAY. PARTICULARLY, THERE'S ALSO, I MEAN THERE ARE SHOWN IN MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, BUT NOT, UM, NOT ON THE SOUTHERN END OF THE DISTRICT, WHICH I THINK IS ALSO AN IMPORTANT YEAH. UM, AREA. SO YEAH, THAT'S DEFINITELY SOMETHING. UM, YEAH, I APPRECIATE YOU RAISING THAT. 'CAUSE I DO THINK THAT THAT'S IMPORTANT, PARTICULARLY THAT WEST BRIDGE STREET, RIGHT? THAT'S WHEN YOU CROSS THE BRIDGE INTO THE DISTRICT FROM THE EAST SIDE, THAT'S A LITTLE CLEARER, RIGHT? MM-HMM. . BUT IT'S WHEN YOU'RE SORT OF TRANSITIONING BETWEEN, UM, BRIDGE STREET AND WHAT'S HAPPENING, YOU KNOW, WHEN AS YOU GET TO THE CEMETERY AREA, THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT. SO I THINK THAT A BOARD MIGHT BE INTERESTED TO THE, UH, MULTIMODAL LANDSCAPE PATH RUNNING THROUGH THE COMMUNITY. MM-HMM. , DOES THAT SHOW UP ON ANY OF THESE DRAWINGS? YEAH, SO THAT IS, UM, BEING FURTHER DEVELOPED TO BE INCLUDED, UM, IN A LITTLE MORE DETAIL THROUGH THE PLAN. SO IT'S, UM, WE'RE CALLING IT OUR SIGNATURE TRAIL. SO IT'S LOOKING AT ESSENTIALLY FROM WEST INNOVATION DISTRICT STRETCHING THROUGHOUT THE CITY ALL THE WAY OVER TO SAWMILL, UM, IN SOME CONFIGURATION. SO IT WOULD BE, IF YOU'VE BEEN TO, UM, INDIANA, LIKE CARMEL AREA, THE MONAN TRAIL WHERE IT HAS MULTI MODES OF, UM, OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEDESTRIANS AND BIKE TRAILS AND JUST, YOU KNOW, ART AND ARCHITECTURE AND ALL THOSE KEY COMPONENTS, UH, GREENWAY PIECE OF IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US. WE HAVE A LOT OF, UM, GREENWAY AREA POTENTIAL FOR THAT TO BE INCORPORATED. SO, UM, YEAH, THAT'S SHOWN ON OUR, UM, MULTIMODAL PLAN AS SOMETHING TO BE INCORPORATED AND DEFINITELY RUNS THROUGH THE DISTRICT AND SHOULD BE HIGHLIGHTED AS PART OF THAT 'CAUSE IT WOULD, COULD POTENTIALLY RUN ALONG, UM, YOU KNOW, THE INDIAN RUN. SO AGAIN, THAT'S BEING DEVELOPED, UM, WITH SORT OF A SEPARATE STUDY, BUT IT'S, IT'S A REALLY KEY COMPONENT TO THIS AND WHERE THAT WOULD FIT IN. YEAH. YEAH. GREAT. GREAT POINT. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? NOPE. THE, IF THE PLAN DOES NOT CHANGE MUCH IN THE DISTRICT, I THINK THAT'S, THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING. MM-HMM. , THEY, THE AUTHORS AREAS WHERE THEY FELT THE COMMUNITY WAS STRONG, THEY DIDN'T SUGGEST MODIFICATIONS TO THOSE AREAS. SO THAT'S WHY, UM, THERE ARE THINGS ON THE PERIMETER AND SOME ON SOME OF THE OPEN LOTS, BUT YOU DON'T SEE A LOT OF CHANGES IN OUR DISTRICT. OKAY, GREAT. YEAH, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE YOU HAVE CHANCE TO, TO SEE IT AND WEIGH IN. AND AGAIN, WE, WE USE THESE DOCUMENTS ON A DAILY BASIS AND I KNOW THAT YOU ALL LOOK TO THOSE AS WELL, SO JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT'S REPRESENTING WHAT YOU NEEDED TO DO. SO I JUST WANTED TO MENTION, I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY SAW THE WASHINGTON POST HAD A, AN ANALYSIS OF GREEN SPACE ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND YOU COULD DIP DOWN TO YOUR CITY. HMM. SO I LOOKED UP DUBLIN [01:45:01] AND IT'S ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT COVERED, YOU KNOW, AS OPPOSED TO THE INNER CITIES, WHICH IS WHERE THEY WANNA START ADDING MORE GREEN BECAUSE OF THE HEAT AND MM-HMM. UM, AIR QUALITY AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO ANYWAY, IT MADE DUBLIN LOOK REALLY GOOD. SOMETHING LIKE THAT'S GOOD. SOMETHING LIKE 97%. I'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT IT AGAIN, BUT IT WAS REALLY OKAY. VERY INTERESTING. VERY IMPRESSIVE. YEAH, THAT NATURAL. WE HAVE A CHAPTER IN THE PLAN THAT TOUCHES ON NATURAL RESOURCES AND TREE CANOPY IS A BIG PART OF THAT, RIGHT? AND, AND THAT THAT SIGNATURE GREENWAY, UM, SIGNATURE TRAILS REALLY INTENDED TO HELP CAPITALIZE ON THAT, RIGHT? THAT YOU'RE CREATING THAT SORT OF GREEN RIBBON THROUGHOUT THE CITY AND AND PROVIDING THAT CONNECTION. SO YEAH. GREAT POINT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. ALRIGHT, THANK YOU. ALRIGHT [COMMUNICATIONS] SARAH. ALRIGHT, SO THE ONLY COMMUNICATION IS REALLY A QUESTION FOR THE BOARD. WE HAVE A SITE AND PROJECT TOUR TENTATIVELY SCHEDULED FOR THE 15TH OF MAY AND WE WILL NOT HAVE A NEW MEMBER UNTIL AFTER JUNE. SO WANTED TO SEE WHAT THE MEMBERSHIP THOUGHT ABOUT WHEN TO HAVE THIS TOUR. IT ALSO SEEMS, OR MAYBE IT JUST FEELS LIKE THAT WE JUST HAD ONE OF THESE TOURS. UM, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY SET IN STONE, WE JUST WANTED TO SEE WHAT YOU ALL THOUGHT IT. IT'S UP TO THE FOUR OF YOU . I MEAN, I THINK IT'D BE BETTER TO HAVE IT WHEN THE NEW, I MEAN IT SEEMS BETTER TO HAVE IT WHEN THE NEW PERSON COMES FOR ME, BUT YEAH, I'M FINE WITH THAT. OBVIOUSLY, DEPENDING ON THE DATE, WHEN THE NEW BOARD MEMBER START, IT WOULD BE THE JUNE MEETING. YOUR LAST ONE'S NEXT MONTH, YOUR LAST ONE'S IN MAY. THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN TOLD. YEAH. , I, I, I THOUGHT IT WAS LAST, UNFORTUNATELY, I THOUGHT APRIL, BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD IT'S MAY SO YEAH. OF 2027 ? NO. UM, SO THE JUNE MEETING IS THE 26TH, SO THEN MAYBE IN THE FALL THAT'S BEST THINKING FALLS LOVELY IN DUBLIN. YEAH, EXACTLY. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. I AGREE. IT'S A LITTLE COOLER AND YEAH. DON'T NEED TO BE OUT THERE SWEATING. WE CAN DO A BEER CRAWL AFTERWARDS. YOU CAN COME TOO. THANK YOU. GREAT. YEAH, WE CAN LOOK AT SOME FALL DATES AND SEE, YOU KNOW, WE WILL BRING SOME IDEAS FORTH FOR YOU AND SEE WHAT YOU THINK. SOUNDS GOOD. WE DO HAVE THAT JOINT WORK SESSION STILL THE DAY AFTER LABOR DAY. OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. YES. JENNY SINGH. YES. SO MAYBE EARLY OCTOBER. YEAH. YEAH, BECAUSE OUR MEETING IS THE 25TH. YEP. OR IT COULD BE MID-SEPTEMBER. YEAH. OKAY, COOL. OKAY, PERFECT. THAT'S ALL WE OFFERED. I HAD MAY 15. SARAH, I JUST HAD ONE QUESTION JUST FOR ME SO THAT THE BU AND I, MAYBE I MISSED SOMETHING SOMEWHERE. THE, THE BUILDING, THE OLD OSCARS, THE BUILDING WHERE OSCARS IS, I SAW ANOTHER PLACE NOW. THERE'S NOTHING IN THERE. I, I DIDN'T IS THERE ANYTHING COME WHERE, WHAT THAT, ANY PLAN OF WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK LIKE? 'CAUSE I THINK NOW THERE NOT OFFICIALLY, WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY APPLICATIONS. NO. OKAY. THAT'S 'CAUSE I THINK NOW THE WHOLE STREET SCAPE IS MAYBE EMPTY, RIGHT? I MEAN BOTH THE, YEAH, THE LITTLE BOUTIQUE IS GONE AND, OKAY. YEAH. OKAY. IF, IF THERE'S NOTHING ELSE, YOUR MOTION TO ADJOURN? NO, IT'S A PANEL . ALRIGHT, WE ADUR, WE ADJOURNED. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.